Tuesday, June 8, 2010

Politically divided...Freedom is NOT free.

"I am no believer in the amalgamation of parties, nor do I consider it as either desirable or useful for the public; but only that, like religious differences, a difference in politics should never be permitted to enter into social intercourse or to disturb its friendships, its charities or justice. In that form, they are censors of the conduct of each other and useful watchmen for the public." --Thomas Jefferson to Henry Lee, 1824. ME 16:73

I went back and forth about posting this over here at Real World, but it is about relationships, or lack there of, and I’m seeking advice or validation… however you perceive it. And this Real World blog is for this very purpose, to post things more sensitive than one would usually post on their own blogs. And one thing I do actually stay away from, usually, on my blog is politics.

See, I would be considered conservative in any political circle.

I don’t hold true to any one party, but to the person, or party, who sees the way I see things THE MOST, but admittedly, both parties are corrupt in their own way… to be an effective voter though, you must make your vote count, so you choose a party that you agree more with. So my decision on who I vote for may vary by party, as long as I stay as true to myself as I can.

Does that make sense?

I will say that I don’t agree with a LOT of the things the current government is doing, almost nothing, which is pretty rare in my short experience of being on top of things politically.

This has rolled into and affected some of my relationships.

It scares me.

Where once I could talk friendly and even openly to others that believed differently than me politically, it has now become an effort of the highest degree. I can hardly stand it. I want to scream and yell, and rant and rave, and call names. If you know me, this is not really in my character on a day to day basis. I’m pretty chill. I may get bugged and have a spat, but never really get ready to go one on one in a UFC ring.

The only times I actually feel that way is when I have a lapse of judgment and try to argue religion, which is fruitless, or, when someone messes with one of my offspring, other than that, I’m good.

I almost can’t even hang out with those that differ from me politically, in real life; … it has gotten that bad. It’s like we have nothing to talk about that doesn’t eventually flow into the current administration and although I have gotten really good at holding my tongue, because I know the conversation will go NO WHERE if I continue to involve myself in it, I am screaming in my head… SCREAMING! Do you know how difficult it is to be sane when you are screaming in your head?

I am exhausted by the end of my time with them, so much so, that I am almost bitter about it.

With blog reading it is different; someone will get on their soap box and preach their undying love. Instead of disliking them for it, I can just leave their blog for that day and be no worse for the wear, but it’s harder to leave in the middle of a dinner conversation when they are a guest in your house (that you invited)… ya feelin me?

It doesn’t just scare me, it makes me sad.

I think the crevice that divides this country naturally has grown all too big. Where we could stand together mostly as a nation, I believe, we now stand as two separate groups, the ones who agree with how the current government is running things, and the ones that want to do something about it.

I love the end of this statement given by Sylvia Allen, Senator of Arizona, about the law S.B. 1070, she states, “Maybe it is too late to save America. Maybe we are not worthy of freedom anymore. But as an elected official I must try to do what I can to protect our Constitutional Republic. Living in America is not a right just because you can walk across the border. Being an American is a responsibility and it comes by respecting and upholding the Constitution the law of our land which says what you must do to be a citizen of this country. Freedom is not free.

To be an American, is a responsibility, and, freedom is not free. So true. But it starts with the basic human relationship. We fight, or have an innate sense to fight, for our relationships with our family and friends, our relationship with our country, our relationship with God, our relationships and connections period.

Arizona was on the side of doing something about it. Doing something that they felt would protect the citizens of their state.

Relationships are important things. Our lives are full of them, we were not meant to be solitary we were built to have connections. When a nation, whose basic principles were founded on bonding together to break free of tyranny, divides itself so completely and so visibly to other nations as it is now, it makes us weak and vulnerable.

And that is scary… and very very sad.

So what do you guys think? Am I totally blowing hot air? Or does anyone else see and feel what I am feeling? Or do you totally disagree with me? Have politics affected a relationship/friendship of yours?


Shelle-BlokThoughts

82 comments:

Tit for Tat said...

Freedom is a misnomer just like freewill. All you have is limited choice. Unfortunately some days your choice is more limited than others. Thats probably why youre so frustrated. ;)

Andrea -The Blogging Literary Mama said...

I'm not up on the Arizona thing so I may completely screw this up but - what I just read I agree with. Just because you walked into MY country illegally don't expect me to give you favors. And healthcare. And the right to poach MY tax dollars to support your family. If you want to make America your home Do It Legally. I'd welcome you with a lovely glass of iced tea. (And while I'm probably pissing peole off I'll add this: It's America! Speak English!!!)

My husband is on the opposite side of the political spectrum from me and it does cause a few dust ups every now and then. I try really hard not to get offended by his politics because we each get the right to vote how we want and think how we want. And so far we've enver once voted for the same person :)

I don't think you should compromise what you believe for the sake of being able to be friends but you might have to take a "Let's not talk politics" stance. If they can't agree with that then maybe it is time to rethink the friendship. Respecting each others beliefs is part of what brought you together in the first place.

Nolens Volens said...

Hey...I am friends with you despite our differences, aren't we? ;) I am very open-minded about people's beliefs (Westboro Baptist Church is definitely NOT included) and all I ask from them in return is the same treatment.

SciFi Dad said...

I'm not going to say much, mainly because as a Canadian I'm not sure it's my place.

But I will point out that the state senator you linked to mentions dead bodies and Koran (Qur'an) "bibles" in the same sentence when discussing what ranchers find on their property. I will not claim to know the implications, but I have my own perspective, and it isn't of an open minded free country the likes of which were described in this post.

Southern Sage said...

Well on the relationship side of this post I can't say it has ever affected me. I dont know anyone who votes differently than me. Everyone I know loves their kids and wants the best for them, works, is personally responsible and believes in freedom and human rights. There is only one way to vote when you see things clearly like my friends irl. The bulk are morals voters.

I have no problem discussing politics without screaming and yelling. It is easy really. If you are a conservative all you have to do is use logic and common sense and you will baffle and befuddle any opposition. If you are liberal you cry and sob uncontrollably and the conservative will feel pitiful for you, with due cause and the discussion will end.

Arm yourself with the facts and you can not lose a political argument. Nobody who knows and understands history will even attempt to argue with you even if they are an emotional mess of a voter who refuses to let logic and historical facts stand in their way when casting their vote against America and its values.

Southern Sage said...

Sci Fi: It is the freest country, the freest one with well defined, paid for in blood, borders.

SciFi Dad said...

Sage: I don't disagree that the US is a free country, and one with more freedoms than many (as I do not know the situation in every country, I cannot call it the most free).

However, when a legislator justifies a bill by saying that ranchers are upset by finding religious books on their property, no less in a country whose Declaration of Independence (i.e. the original document, not an amendment made after the fact) guarantees religious freedom, I feel uneasy about the intentions behind said bill.

DCHY said...

I've had a few "headbangers"...the kind that makes you want to bang your head on the wall repeatedly. Doesn't even have to be political... Sighs.

Yeah, I have walked away from a few friendships because they were UNABLE to meet me halfway or even a quarter of the way.

The adage of "If you can't beat them, join them"? Pure hokum! ;)

SciFi Dad said...

Apparently I need a US history lesson. Religious freedom was part of the First Amendment.

My bad.

Southern Sage said...

Sci-Fi: that is fair.

The historical significance of the Koran being present is that some of the 9-11 hijackers could have come across the border, and the next ones could easily come across the sieve that is the southern (or northern) border.
She wasn't trying to hold anyone's religious freedoms back, just stating the historical context.

Being free should mean free to control who comes in and free to protect our border.

I am with you though if it was based solely on keeping someone from practicing their preferred religion then that would be bad and I would be against it.

The constitution and amendments was written for citizens and those here legally.

Shelle-BlokThoughts said...

Tit for Tat--you know, I've never thought about it like that, but you are so right. Thanks! :) Some days it is more limited than others.

Andrea-you are right on. I don't know how you do it in your relationship other than not talking about it. I love to talk politics or religion-I just can't seem to see things the way they do... it makes no sense to me, which then makes me crazy. Usually I am very open minded and can see of why they might think the way they do... but in the last few incidents... I haven't been able to see it--they seem a bit like crazy people to me if you want me to be honest. But then again, maybe I seem the same way to them?

Tit for Tat said...

Shelle

Glad it helped. :)

As far as being open minded. That idea is great when it comes to discussing and great for thinking some people are just nuts(or unwilling to see the obvious). I usually get those "open minded" thoughts when listening to the hyper conservative or religious folks. ;)

Shelle-BlokThoughts said...

NV-yes we are still friends despite our differences. But ours are religious, and for once in my life, religion is way easier to talk about and keep an open mind about than politics! :)

SciFi- I assume you are referring to this, "One Rancher testified that 300 to 1200 people a DAY come across his ranch vandalizing his property, stealing his vehicles and property, cutting down his fences, and leaving trash. In the last two years he has found 17 dead bodies and two Koran bibles. "

See this is my problem. You focus not on what my post is actually about, but you focus on TWO KORAN BIBLES she states in a long paragraph about the ranchers being terrorized. Really? What was the statement right before that? 17 dead bodies. I'm not mad, so don't take it that way, I'm befuddled. SciFi--if my post was actually about religion I would state, even if they found TWO Books of Mormons on their property, the vandalism, the dead bodies, would be way more important to focus on. But like Sage said, I think she used it as a fact. She could have left that out, sure, but honestly-- But I do love that you state your perspective and I honor that. But it just confuses me. They didn't sign the bill BECAUSE of the two Koran Bibles on the property, she signed the bill because of the terrorizing. I mean, would you love for people to come into your home SciFi on a daily basis and ruin your property, leaving religious books aside, and then, because the law is not behind you, you have to pay for all of that? See the bigger problem?

We were based on religious freedom. But come here legally and leave a Koran Bible at my door respectfully without vandalizing anything and I promise you I'll smile and thank you for the visit. I won't spit in your face or tell you to leave the country because you don't believe the same as I.

You are right in your email you sent that I am part of the problem of the division because I have a hard time talking politics now. The thing is, with my experience of those that think opposite of me regarding politics, is that they just want to argue--like some do religion in some cases. I am able to have a good debate back and forth when things make sense to me, but FOR ME, what is happening lately in government concerning health care, gun control, etc... don't make sense. It doesn't necessarily mean I'm right--I just am having a hard time talking about it with people that continually want to discuss it with me just to argue with me.

My focus for this post was that it is ruining relationships were it hasn't in the past. I hate that. I need to work on me, I understand that.

Again--I love to hear everyone's point of view so thanks for putting yourself out there.

Shelle-BlokThoughts said...

Sage-I unfortunately have to deal with people that don't see things the way I see them. People that are close and even blood. So I deal with it. I just hate that I have to. I'd rather not. But then again, it keeps me on my toes and makes me research things so that I can talk about why or why not I agree with something.

Shelle-BlokThoughts said...

Tit for Tat--" I usually get those "open minded" thoughts when listening to the hyper conservative or religious folks. ;)" funny... :) I get it with the opposite folks ;) That just it though, what is OBVIOUS to me isn't necessarily obvious to someone else. I get that... it's just hard to understand and I hate that it's hard for me to overcome. It's never been that way before. Maybe because, for me instead of just dancing the line of liberal and conservative... everything seems to be one sided.

Or maybe I'm the one walking to the one side :)

SciFi Dad said...

Shelle: the reason I highlighted the references to the Qur'an is because it stood out to me when I read the statement. The rest of the content made sense: vandalism, drug running, etc. are all reasons to restrict access.

However, what did finding two copies of the Qur'an have to do with anything? Why was that even mentioned? It made me reconsider everything else that was said and perceive it in a potentially unflattering light.

It would be similar to writing a piece about your kid being bullied at school, struggling with it, trying to find solutions, and then mentioning that the bully was black. It changes a piece about bullying and gives it a racial undertone.

The same thing happened with that piece, at least for me as a reader.

Heidi Ashworth said...

You did a really good job of writing this. I haven't read the other comments so I'm not sure if anyone said this or not, but I think the reason why people, incl. you, are so much more heated about politics is b/c so much more is at stake and because so much needs to change. Meanwhile, lots of things are changing, but not always for the better. Having said that, I'm pretty sure our current situation has been long expected. "They" said that in the "last days" the constitution would be "hanging by a thread". Scary days, indeed.

Shelle-BlokThoughts said...

Right I see that. With your example about the bullying and your example with the Qu'ran is similar in the fact that they are both facts. Sure they can go unmentioned, but would it have the same undertone if I mentioned the bully was white? Or if I mentioned that they left rosary beads instead?

I understand that for you it doesn't sit well.

And for me the bullying and terrorizing of ranchers doesn't sit well.

Ying and Yang right? :)

Tit for Tat said...

Shelle

I think the problem comes when we think in "absolute" terms. For the most part we all have good and bad ideas. We also share them with each other. I believe the trick is finding the proper filter. As your Democrat(liberal) countrymen did when Bush was it power, it seems maybe you are taking it on the chin now. Trust me, I get it. :)

Shelle-BlokThoughts said...

Heidi- You know, thank you. That IS it, there IS more at stake! I feel that urgency. The constitution is hanging more threadbare everyday. I agree, it IS scary.

Shelle-BlokThoughts said...

Tit for Tat- thanks. At least I feel validated :) Although I can honestly say I didn't fully agree with everything Bush did either and I was able to agree and then agree to disagree with my fellow liberals.

It's harder now, at least for me, it seems.

Finding the right filter. Yes, that is true.

SciFi Dad said...

Shelle: the thing is, according to the most recent census data, 95% of all Mexicans ARE Christian, so with hundreds of people trespassing through those ranches every day, I would expect more than a few Bibles and/or rosaries (89% of all Mexicans are Catholic according to the same census) would get lost or left behind in the shuffle.

However, there was no mention of these items (or any other items, for that matter) in the statement. That's what gave it a different bent than "we need to protect our ranches from hordes of people".

Sometimes, what isn't said is as important as what is.

Southern Sage said...

Sci-Fi: Your example in itself is the true description of racism. The pointing out that the bully was black, long haired, fat, bald, tall or otherwise though it might not lend anything to the story but if it is factual why would it be racist. The THINKING of it by anyone as racist is where the racism comes in, the relation of facts is most assuredly not racist.

Southern Sage said...

Bible readers didn't fly planes into buildings. No one yelled "Praise be to JC" before killing 3k of us.

Southern Sage said...

I can't really keep up with picking corn and black berrys and such but someone up there talked about absolutes in beliefs.

If someone isn't absolute in their belief then they shouldn't take any stands. My beliefs I can back up with history. So yes I stand on them. If it is mere opinion, (which I refuse to argue) then I will not take a stand.

If history shows something and it is factual then people should be absolute in their belief of it.

I only take stands when my stance is like mathematics. If it doesn't add up and isn't provable then I won't argue it. I will however discuss it.

Weak people don't have absolutes IMO.

Southern Sage said...

To me "open-minded" is for people who haven't taken the time to look closely and clearly at an issue. I am very very open minded about the nursing habits of the South American swamp rat. I am open minded about the nutritional values of finger nails.

To say that someone is open minded depends on the subject. Should Shelle, a Christian be "open minded" about elective abortion say? No. Because that person believes as part of their religion the value of human life. So being open minded there is being weak and spineless. IMO

Southern Sage said...

Ok gotta go shuck and silk corn and wash black berrys.

Shelle-BlokThoughts said...

SciFi- see that statistic you threw out makes it even more important for the ranchers to be protected! Just because they are crossing the border illegally doesn't mean they are hispanic! The racial profiling goes out the door when there is drugs involved. Drugs are crossing the border through Mexico because it's easier, the borders aren't as protected. So any race wanting to get drugs in are coming through there. That is why facts are important.

Although hispanics can choose any religion and of course could have been the ones leaving their Qu'ran bibles after they vandalized and terrorized the ranchers. I should probably read that bible to see if vandalism and terrorizing are acceptable in that religion? I doubt it, but I could be wrong since I admittedly have never even seen one.

Again, not what my post is even about.

SciFi Dad said...

Sage: just because something is true, is a fact, doesn't mean it is important to the story. Otherwise, every story would have to include a detailed personal history of every person involved, DNA samples, etc. It doesn't, because when person A does something to person B, it's the something that's the story, not the colour of their skin or the symbol around their neck or the style of footwear. Including tangentially related information doesn't always equate with simply stating the facts. Sometimes more is at play.

Joanna Cake said...

Ruf was horrified when I told him I voted for Mrs Thatcher in my first ever election. To him she is the anti-Christ!

We have agreed to disagree on politics although we do sometimes have some heated discussions :)

Mind you, as I said over at Sage's, these days, there isn't anything to choose between our parties. None of the leaders has any personality and the policies are all pretty much the same.

The problem is that most of them come from privileged backgrounds. It would be good to actually see someone who had had to run a household on peanuts getting to grips with our current economic crisis. That's the type of person who would know what areas needed cuts and savings.

For those of us who've walked up the hill to save the £2 busfare, it should be back to the old adage of 'if you look after the pennies, the pounds will look after themselves'

As to politics at the dinner table. Absolutely not. Same with religion. And football. They are all subjects about which people get far too passionate and they cause so many rifts in friendships.

Sometimes, as a host, you have to be strong enough to stop the conversation dead as soon as it starts because of all the bad feeling that is bound to be engendered by any debate on the subject.

It's just too divisive.

Southern Sage said...

Sfi: I completely agree but the statement of it doesn't make it racist. If it is factual. Not in your context anyway. It is simply descriptive.

For sure the use of lack of use of descriptive words makes a story. We can pass a coalition to ban adjectives. It would probably suit me too because my bride takes about 7x as long to tell a story because she babbles aimlessly about details which little if nothing to the story.

a kid bullied my kid at school. that would suffice, hell that is a blog post I would even read, but that blog wouldn't have many readers.

Gucci Mama said...

Wow. I'll address the post and then the comments, because they seem to have taken on a life of their own.

As far as differing politically in relationships, I've rarely run into this problem because I tend to surround myself with people who think and believe as brilliantly as I do. But there are those, my sister is one of them, who have partaken of the Obama kool-aid and are eager to share it with me. We rarely talk politics because there's simply no way to meet in the middle (you know, between my brilliance and her idiocy) so we avoid the topic for the most part. It works for us. Sometimes agreeing to disagree is the only way to keep the peace, and I've found that my relationship with my sister is more important than making her realize I'm right. Though I still hope (and believe) she will realize it one day.

As for the comments on this post, I think they've followed a pretty predictable path. As soon as politics are brought up, especially conservative politics, someone inevitably plays the race card, someone brings up how it's important to have an "open mind" when reality is that no one who is passionate about the issues truly has an open mind. These things are brought up because it's too difficult to combat things like logic and common sense (which would obviously be the conservative side), so the only way to "win" then, is to be sensational (the liberal side). "You're a racist!" or "You need to have an open mind" are two very quick ways to get me to abandon an argument, because I don't have the time or the energy to try to rationalize with someone who is irrational.

That's how I deal with political differences. I've learned to walk away and not engage unless it's on my terms. No one will convince me to believe other than I do; I don't want to have an open mind about things like how it could be anything other than evil to suck a living baby out of a mother's womb or the fact that this slouch toward Gomorrah we're seeing in America today is anything other than destructive. And if someone is lacking the brain power to be a conservative in the first place, it's rare they'll be able to summon enough to change their minds even though it's excessively difficult, if not impossible, to find fault with the way I present my case.

This might have been a good thing to know when I was getting that political science degree I've never used.

If anyone has read through this eighty page comment, let me know. I probably owe you some Gucci.

Southern Sage said...

GM: perfectly stated. It would have been pithier had you said "What Sage said" though

I read it all. Does Gucci make a watch that is heavy without the face of it being sissified? If so I'll take one of those, ya know since I read and all. Let me know I'll send my address.

Gucci Mama said...

Sage - Why thank you. Did I say what you said? Your comments were the only ones I didn't read...;)

Gucci does in fact make such a watch. I'm not sure you've really earned it though, since you'd read my comments no matter how long winded because you live to hang on my every word.

Southern Sage said...

Well maybe that is the case but I did meet the requirements! And their shoes wont look on me and their satchels dang sure wont!

Gucci Mama said...

Sage, you could totally pull of a man purse. I mean, I would lose all respect for you, but I still think you could pull it off.

Shelle-BlokThoughts said...

Very well stated GM-- and I have it on good authority that he does hang on your every word.

I also read the whole thing.

I've never even liked Gucci on me, so give my purse to Sage. That's what would have picked!

Southern Sage said...

GM: Pull off is not what I do. I ROCK and KILL in the clothes I wear. I could surely pull off most anything. I mean have you seen me?
Sheeeeeeeeeesh

RQ calls every dang day to get me to walk the runway again.

Gucci Mama said...

Shelle, that will work since he's obviously clamoring after a purse though he hesitates to come right out and say it. And thank you; glad you liked my little offering of brilliant political thought. ;)

Sage, um, yes. True. Forgive me. I should have known. What, exactly, is RQ?

Southern Sage said...

DUH

Redneck Quarterly

Ya know the high fashion magazine?

Tit for Tat said...

Sage

At least you quantify most of your cherished beliefs with IMO. ;)

Truth be told I could probably dissect most of those beliefs with the same History you claim to use. Its amazing how we as people overlook certain aspects of our beliefs because it may not coincide with what we really believe. A case in point is the loving Jesus the Christ. I am amazed at how many people forget about his alter ego Yahweh. Though I do understand how Numbers 31 would make them a little queazy. Im sure its the same for the people who like Dexter until they actually watch what he does. ;)

Gucci Mama said...

Sage, I would kill to watch you strut your stuff down that cat walk.

Tit for Tat, I don't need to quantify the truth with "in my opinion" because truth is not relative. ;)

Southern Sage said...

Tit: Unless you can dissect 2+2=4 it would be tough to dissect my beliefs. If you can use history to prove any of American politics contrary to my beliefs I will be amazed.

If something is my opinion I readily admit that. If it is fact I do not.

See I'm open minded! A little more I will be a weak assed sissified liberal! Crying all the time and pee'ing on myself!

Wait does properly describing liberals make me a racist or a bigot?

I don't know you or your political leanings but I do know American Libs (well I see them on tv anyway) so that isn't a shot at you just the facts on the ground in the US of A.

Southern Sage said...

GM: oh I can surely strut. I got that down pat.

Tit for Tat said...

Sage

Actually Im Tat, its the wife's Tit. ;)


History in itself is interpretive. You know the old saying "To the victor goes the spoils of war". So much context and such goes into what we believe. Seeing as I dont know you completely it would be difficult to call you wacko right winger. But hey, who knows you may own some of it. Someday maybe we could sit down and have a pint and discuss your facts. :)

Southern Sage said...

History doesn't change. The relating of it though seems to. Thats why it makes my skin crawl to to hear our Libs here say the Constitution and Bill of Rights are living breathing documents. I can agree hstory is somewhat spinable but it only changes when things directly correlated to it happen further down the line.

Take Social Security for instance, that was hailed as good when it happened but now it is the biggest goat roping ever. It is an excellent example of where our universal health care will go. Thats the problem with Libs here, they never look at the collateral or the long term detrimental effects.

On fiscal matters I will certainly and proudly wear the neo con banner. On social and private issues I could care less unless it affects me fiscally.

I don't know how much a pint is but if that is = a 12 pack im all in!

Margaret said...

I am with you on this one. I think that something needs to be done to stop the current administration before they totally ruin what this country was founded on. I get the sense everyday that one day in the future we will be a communist country and won't have any rights at all.

Southern Sage said...

Marg: that is indisputable.

Gucci Mama said...

Margaret - That WILL be the case unless WE do something about it. People were sucked in by the "hope and change" bullshit and couldn't tell their ass from a hole in the ground. They were also having wet dreams about being a part of the big historical fabulousness of electing a black president and didn't bother to asses the damage his extremism would do to our way of life. I am cautiously optimistic that Americans will have figured it out come November and we can get some power back. Otherwise we'll all be sitting around in a few years asking ourselves where we're going and why we're in a handbasket.

Daddy Files said...

Southern Sage (a misnomer if ever there was one), I didn't get past your very first comment, so I'm focusing on that.

For starters, you lose most of your credibility right off the bat by admitting you don't have any friends with dissimilar views than yourself. First of all, how is that even possible? How is someone's life so narrowly lived that he limits himself to friends who do nothing but agree? That is not only unhealthy, it's alarmingly boring. I have many friends and we're all over the map politically. We agree on almost nothing. We bicker and banter constantly. And it's fantastic. Because as different as we are and despite the fact that we'll never agree politically, we will always be friends.

But you state your friends (obviously ultra conservatives) are "moral voters" and you believe "there is only one way to vote when you see things clearly." This, of course, implies anyone who doesn't vote with you is immoral and wrong.

Then you give the same old song and dance about liberals being soft crybabies and blah blah blah. Pretty much the Rush Limbaugh/Glenn Beck rhetoric all of the right spews without exerting an ounce of brainpower. Baaaaaahhhh.

But what's hilarious is that you consider yourself and your viewpoints to be America's saving grace, when in reality you are what's wrong with America. You are the reason for the insurmountable divide, because there's no talking or reasoning with zealots like yourself. Your mind is already made up. About everything. But just maybe if you (and all similarly obstinate people on both sides of the aisle) stepped down from your soapbox for two seconds you'd learn a thing or two.

Just this week I changed my mind on something I never thought I would. I'm a liberal from Massachusetts, and I hate guns. I didn't think they belonged in a home with small children. But I spent a week with a friend and fellow dad in North Carolina this week, and he showed me his guns. His trigger locks. His safe. Then he took me to the firing range and I learned how to handle a weapon. And you know what? It was a good time. And I see there are very responsible gun owners out there who should absolutely be allowed to arm themselves in their own home, even with kids. I was wrong, and I admitted it. I still think fully automatic weapons should be banned but that's a whole other post. The point is, if I wasn't willing to look at things from a different angle I wouldn't have changed my mind.

But as you've already stated, you're unwilling to do that. Because you don't even have any friends who would present the other side.

There are intelligent conservatives out there. I disagree with many of them vehemently and probably always will. But I would never make sweeping generalizations or have the conceit/audacity to think my point of view is correct all the time. Because I'm not an ignorant know-it-all with my head up my ass.

But by all means, keep surrounding yourself with like-minded people who never challenge you or your views. That's the GOP way right?

Gucci Mama said...

Daddy Files - Whoa! Not that he needs it, but let me take up a torch for my baby cakes Sage for a second.

I'm going to ignore your condescension and poorly veiled insults as much as I can because I don't think we need to compare dick sizes over here. I'll attempt to focus on your "argument" such as it was.

I absolutely agree with Sage when he names conservatives moral voters because a.) it's true, and b.) morals are so relative in the mind of a liberal, the "whatever's right for you" bullshit mentality is so rampant, that that belief itself can be rightly considered immoral or amoral. If morals are not clearly defined, then how do we know they exist at all? The mind of a liberal makes everything relative to suit his purpose. There is only absolute truth; truth does not exist in degrees. You don't like that so you rail against it, but the fact remains.

I find it quite precious you've recently decided that your friend has the right to do what he wants in his own home, like owning weapons. It's a rare liberal who believes an individual can make better decisions for himself and his family than the government can. I applaud your clear thinking there, though I suspect you still think only certain people deserve the right to bear arms and only after they've jumped through sixty seven asinine hoops. That's the trouble with liberals, they want to take away real rights and create fictitious ones in their place.

You cannot be serious when you assert that conservatives who stand up for what is right and true are "what's wrong with America". That's just laughable, my friend. Sage is not the one with his head so far up his ass he can taste last night's dinner.

Ronald Reagan said, "The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so."

Amen, sir.

Tit for Tat said...

There is only absolute truth(Gucci Mama)


And let me guess, you know what it is?

Tit for Tat said...

Be it USA or Canada, the only ones with the most freedom are the ones with the most cash. Capitalism rules over all. Democracy and Communism or any other ism for that matter are just window dressing for the House of cash. Anyone who thinks different obviously doesnt have enough cash to get it. But Hey, at least they get to vote. LOL. ;)

Gucci Mama said...

Tit for tat, You got it baby.

Listen, in all seriousness, I don't claim to know everything. I might even be wrong on occasion, though I'm NOT wrong in anything I've said here today. Truth and morals are not relative; I absolutely stand by that.

Something is true or it isn't. There are not shades or degrees of truth regardless of whether you believe there are. There is no such thing as "whatever is right for you". There is right and there is wrong. There is truth and there is untruth.

The fact that liberals stand for so many disgustingly immoral or amoral things that they have to create relativism in order to justify them doesn't make them any less immoral in reality, just in the mind of the deluded liberal.

Anonymous said...

In a way, all of the comments are just a microcosm of what the original post was about. For many people, politics is like their religion. On both sides, there is a lot of vitriolic discourse, which gets in the way of having a rational discussion about political issues (even by politicians). In much the same way, I think it could get in the way of personal relationships if people are more concerned about their political stance versus the friendship.

I agree with the comment that that history can be used by either side to back up an argument. It all depends on the POV or bias that was used to record that history. (Don't believe me? Check out regional differences in US textbooks on the subject of the Civil War)
~JT

Tit for Tat said...

Gucci Mama

For every amoral or immoral Liberal you can find I can point you in the direction of a conservative one. Fucked up knows no political or religious leaning. The truth is there is no absolute truth, thats why you have degrees. Just when you think its as hot as it gets all of a sudden it goes super nova hot.
Now I wonder how much your absolute truths have changed through the years? I can imagine the woman you are now sure as sheit wasnt the same one at 16. Nor will it be when youre 95, if you are fortunate enough to make it that long.

Gucci Mama said...

Tat - We agree that there are douche bags on both sides, though your side kind of holds the monopoly. Present company excluded, naturally. Let me just clarify that I'm NOT calling you a douche bag before someone accuses me of it.

My absolute truths have not changed through the years because that's the glorious thing about truth. It doesn't change. That's the very definition of truth, you see.

Tit for Tat said...

Mama

Funny thing is, Im a little bit of both sides. Conservative on some things and Liberal on others. I call myself neither. Dont worry about the doucebag tag though, Ive been called worse through the years. ;)

Gucci Mama said...

Jesus. You're not a douche bag. Let's be friends.

Shelle-BlokThoughts said...

JT always makes me think of Justin Timberlake :)

anyway... you are right, this has gone way off what my original post was about. But that is okay. I want people to discuss.

But I think the comments just show or validate my post if only by a small portion.

It's hard to discuss it and always has been, just seems to me it even more difficult.

I, a few times, screamed in my head just by reading comments!

hey see there... I messed up on my comment and it didn't post and now you guys go from douche bag to friends!

Watch out, just read Tit for Tat's blog and he has a hot wife ;) No seriously, she's pretty.

Tit for Tat said...

Shelle

This is actual fun for me. I see that you get worked up over sheit like this but this is how I talk with most of my friends and clients. Thats just life over here in Canada. You know us socialists. ;)

Sassy Pants Freckle Face said...

WOWZA!!! I love this and,.. you,.. NO Joke, esp about hanging around with like minded parties!! Wow go for you and this, I am so there, here with you!

Kathi Oram Peterson said...

I understand exactly what you're saying, and yes, I feel your pain.

I have some friends whom I have known for years, and I know there is NO WAY I could voice the frustration I feel today to them. But they also know how I feel and we avoid "hot" topics.

Which is sad because when we stop talking about issues there is no communication.

Thanks for having the courage to voice your opinion. :0)

Southern Sage said...

Daddy Flies:

Looks like I have a lot of wrongs to right here.

I should say "What GM said" but y'all know that ain't how I roll.

I will be forced to do the same thing that GM did and refuse to wallow in the gutter sniping. I don't do veiled anything. I speak it as I see it and that is that. Whatever you read into it is probably true, I will agree to that.

Who is it I lose my credibility to? That is the question. See it doesn't matter to me if I lose credibility if I am correct. And it shouldn't you. BE right, it feels better than being wrong, or so I hear.

I am a national manufactures rep. I have accounts from sea to sea and border to border. I have a HUGE amount of acquaintances. The thing I said though is true. I don't deal with people who do not work, those people can't buy my products. I spend every day dealing with people who are small business managers and owners, the working class. None of them that I deal with see it differently than me. They love their kids, they didn't want to saddle them with debt. They work hard for what they have, they don't want anyone to take that away. They are responsible for their own actions, and they don't mind that. They pay for their own insurance, or they don't have any, and they are ok with that. They pay for what they have. They pay what they owe and want to keep what they earn. Nobody who does those things sees politics differently than me, unless they vote against their best interest and their country, which of course would be counter productive for people that see the world the way we do.

I am glad you are concerned with my health though, and I have made no attempt to entertain you or anyone else. Often times the truth is boring.

Yes my friends are Americans with at least an elementary understanding of the Constitution.

Fella every time I see a liberal they are crying literally or pissing and moaning about some thing that they don't have that others have.

page 2 below

Southern Sage said...

I do not listen to either one of those guys on the radio, I live so far out in the woods we don't get either.

I don't remember saying my thoughts were America's saving grace but I am glad you agree that they are. One point for you.

I am the reason for the divide? Well ya know that isn't a bad thing. Why would it be bad that some of us are too intelligent to follow along drinking the cool aid right on to the slaughter? I AM GLAD that people are willing to stand in numbers unprecedented in my lifetime against a run away rogue government. I HOPE I am the divide. I WANT that. You have blessed me my little liberal friend. If you do one of those blog buttons for me please hook me up I will display it proudly in a prominent position on my blogs.

My mind is already made up on most issues you are right, because I have studied them, thought about them, looked at every side of them. And every time I take a stance I end up being on the right side of it.

Of course you were against people owning guns. That is a no brainer, you stated you were a liberal, why would you be for a plainly written, every court in the country upheld, right? Of course you were agin it. I would have never thought you would be for it. I guess I had that one right also.

So you are equating me being right with you being wrong? Man you should write speeches for Obama with that spin ability. It was a good point though and I am tickled that your friend showed you the light. I don't know how old you are but it seems it takes some folks longer than others, just the learning curve.

I don't agree with intelligent conservatives all the time either.

I don't have any clue what the GOP way is since I am not part of the GOP. I was a Democrat until I saw that the options were all socialists and I couldn't sink low enough to be grouped with folks who would support them. It is a pride thing I guess.

I made it all the way without even worrying about the pot shots from the gutter. Until the conceit comment....

Everyone be damn sure you are clear here.

I am Not conceited
I am Not cocky
I am Not over confident.

When you are me friend you have the luxury of being absolutely Convinced.

Southern Sage said...

JT that is true about Texts on the civil war. If we kept the ACLU out of the classroom we'd maybe be able to get the facts in there.

Southern Sage said...

WOW tat
there is no absolute truth? wow.

The truth by definition is absolute isn't it?

hmmmmm

Gucci Mama said...

*Begins a slow clap for Sage*

Absolutely brilliant, baby cakes.

Southern Sage said...

Damn I come back and Tat and GM are making googly eyes!

Southern Sage said...

Bows @ Gm (neckin on the sofa with Tat)

ty ma'am

Gucci Mama said...

Nah. I only neck on the sofa with those who are Absolutely Convinced.

I've heard that conservatives have really big...brains.

;)

Southern Sage said...

Shell: I see that sometimes you might have to deal with those folks that if they are family or whatever but why would I have someone in my group of friends that voted to the detriment of my ability to live my life? Earn a decent living? Live with as little Big Brother as possible? Why would I assosiate with people who hate America and the values she represents?

If I was the captain of a team and one of my fellow players on the team wasn't all in and playing as hard as they could, going for the same goal as the rest of us I would kick him off the team.

I have the ability to x those people out of my life. That is all I am saying.

Southern Sage said...

GM thatsa fact!

Southern Sage said...

Tat: I'm with you, it tickles me to no end to politely discuss the intricacies of political thought.

Tit for Tat said...

Sage

Oops, youre right. The only absolute truth is I dont know it. But Im sure someone does. Oh where, oh where art they??

I think if you drank some better beer you might have known that. Come on down to Canada, you may even be able to drink a six pack. Hehehehe

Gucci Mama said...

Tat - Come to me. I'll enlighten you, Love.

Shelle-BlokThoughts said...

Sassy--just your name makes me smile. I agree, Wowza! :)

Kathy- "Which is sad because when we stop talking about issues there is no communication. " That's true, especially with the people that I was thinking about when I wrote this post. It seems we have little else to talk about. Funny that.

April said...

Wow Shelle, you sure know how to start it up! I am a Canadian who has lived in the US for over 25 years now. I have a nephew who is a Border Patrol Officer in Tucson. If I could vote, I would not pick one political party. I find many politicians to be less than honest. They say what they think the public wants to hear to get into office and then they follow the agenda of the special interest groups who lined their pockets. But, I tell you what, I wouldn't live anywhere else. I love this country. If I don't like what I see, then it is my responsibility to go about changing it. Name calling and blame won't change this country. Freedom cannot survive on a diet of apathy.

Shelle-BlokThoughts said...

April- "Freedom cannot survive on a diet of apathy." Love that and completely agree. I guess I do know how to stir things up! I had NO idea! Or maybe I just know how to start something that others feel completely passionate about? hehe.

Sage--That is the beauty of it. You don't have to associate with those people. I do, true, but lately it is less and less. But not all people and not all that disagree with me politically. But I see what you are saying and I don't want them out of my life, I just don't want to talk politically with them! :)

Like I said a few times. Maybe it's just because I have become more educated and have taken more of a stance on how I feel about things.

Southern Sage said...

Freedom cannot survive on a diet of apathy.

And we got a big belly full of it right now!
Perfectly said April.

Shelle: Nah I prefer to x them out. If you have a bucket of fresh water and someone pee's 2 drops in it what would you do?

X it out.

heelsnstocking said...

im just going to sit here and be brittish!

Anonymous said...

Well I have friends from all over the map politically but I do prefer to spend time with those closer to my thoughts.

Sage I see you found some more people that are not as smart as you. When will they learn? You did it again Sage. I am convinced you are exponentially smarter than any other blogger. I hope you never run out of democrats to best intellectually. I will go check out Gucci Mama too.

WE BELONG