Tuesday, July 20, 2010

Abortion, He Said She Said, come on you know you wanna

Ok the way this goes is GM wrote her abortion stance and sent it to Sage and then he wrote his stance. Granted we are not that far apart on this issue but a few things are up for debate. Feel free to opine with whatever YOUR stance is. I would suggest following the comments if you are up for a good debate, a spanking, or would like to learn something.

Gucci Mama Said.....

I don't like to call myself "pro-life". I think most people are pro-life. Pro-life is a misnomer. Even people who have convinced themselves that abortion on demand is some kind of "right" are probably, for the most part, "pro-life". Instead I am a fierce, passionate advocate of the right to life. I believe that everyone has the basic right to life regardless of age, size, place of residence, future potential, socioeconomic status, or existence of handicap.

I could spend all day enumerating the thousands of reasons abortion is legally, ethically, and morally bankrupt, but you've heard those before. You either recognize them or you choose to turn a blind eye to them. We don't need to talk about how the Fourteenth Amendment doesn't include a broad and interpretive right to privacy as it has been manipulated in order to justify this horrifying practice. We don't need to talk about medical realities like how the heart of a fetus begins to beat at 18 days gestation and it has a distinctive and quantifiable genetic map from the moment of conception. And if we don't need to talk about that, we certainly don't need to mention the mainstream medical consensus that life begins at conception. We certainly don't need to discuss how abortion isn't really some kind of pillar of the feminist movement, because everyone knows that the first feminists like Mary Wollstonecroft, Susan B. Anthony, and Eliza Bisbee Duffey (just to name a few) were diametrically opposed to abortion not only because of the undeniable harm it does to women, but because of the power it gives men over a woman's sexuality.

Since we don't need to talk about those things because they're just basic, common knowledge, let's talk about the tough stuff. Whenever this issue is debated, it is inevitable that someone will bring two things to the table as if the minute possibility of these circumstances somehow justifies virtually unrestricted access to abortion at virtually any time during pregnancy for virtually any reason.

These two things are, of course, rape/incest and the vague, largely undefined "life of the mother" hysteria.

You mean you would force a woman to carry her rapist's baby? What we first need to do is hear the words behind the question which are, Don't you care about this woman? Don't you want to take away her pain, fix her problem? Have you no compassion? For me, advocating the right to life is not about the baby, at least not exclusively. It is about supporting and empowering women. And so looking at it from a compassionate angle, the question we have to ask is Would an abortion help a rape victim or harm her? What many people, pro-life and pro-abortion alike, don't realize is that abortion is not a solution or a treatment for the trauma of rape. Since when is replacing one trauma with another sound medical or psychological advice? Studies have absolutely shown that many women relive their rape experiences during their abortions. Many pregnant rape victims decide to terminate not based on anything other than the thoughts, opinions, sometimes even the coercion of others which seem to collectively say, You are pregnant by rape and this is not acceptable; you have no choice but to abort. It only makes sense.

Nothing could be further from the truth.

The thing that gets me about this challenge is that it is implied that I as a pro-life activist am somehow forcing a pregnant rape victim to carry her rapist's child. That blame does not belong at my door. It does not belong at the victim's door and it does not belong at the baby's door (or the "fetus" if you prefer, though "fetus" is merely Latin for "baby"). The only one who forced a pregnancy on a woman who experienced unimaginable horror is the rapist himself. He is the one who should be crucified, not the right-to-lifer, not the mother, and not the fetus. The reality is that there is so much pressure to abort after a rape that many women feel they have no choice. Women are notorious for doing what people expect of them; we are people pleasers by nature. Furthermore, the immediate aftermath of being brutalized is not the time to be making life altering decisions, especially when the consequences are unknown or even concealed as is sometimes the case.

So what I propose responding when someone poses this question is, if their concern is truly compassion (and in the case of the powerful abortion business machine, it most certainly is not) why can't we love them both? Why can't we extend the same compassion to the baby that everyone agrees should go to the mother? You cannot help the mother without helping the child and you cannot hurt the child without hurting the mother.

But what if the mother's life is in danger? Are you okay with abortion then? This one is a favorite of people trying desperately to find justification for killing an unborn baby. It certainly provides a really cute knee jerk reaction, but unfortunately, it just doesn't hold any water. There is not a single documented case in recorded history of a medical condition that occurs in a mother past the stage of fetal viability that can only be cured by an abortion. There are excessively rare issues that occur in early pregnancy that are truly life threatening in some cases - these are ectopic pregnancy and molar pregnancy - and in these cases abortion is sometimes or even often medically indicated. While there have been several cases of successful full term ectopic pregnancies, I will certainly concede that in these cases, there is a careful decision to be made between woman and doctor regarding whether to terminate.

But this "life of the mother" talking point is almost always introduced when referring to late term abortions and with fetal viability beginning as early as between 22 and 24 weeks, there is simply no justification to terminate the life of a child who could be delivered prematurely in order to ease a high risk maternal health issue. Further, with the amazing medical advances that are made every day, doctors are able to keep high risk women pregnant longer, and they are also able to keep earlier and tinier preemies healthier than ever before.

It really is that simple.

Sage said.......

Well GM and I were asked if there was a political issue we did not agree on because we regularly and easily eviscerate the sissified loser class that has come to be known as liberals or Democrats. There are two issues; abortion is one of them.

While nobody can give any moral reason for this "Man Law" that makes any sense there are a couple of situations, as seldom as they occur, I can't find any reason for ANYONE to be against abortion. Let me also clarify my stance on abortion.

It is common knowledge that abortion benefits men far more than women, everyone with a brain knows this. It is also common knowledge that the roots of abortion are fed by racism, which of course is the lifeblood of liberalism, Marxism, Nazism and the modern Democratic party. Yet and still I could not care less if someone has an abortion, provided it doesn't cost me money, though of course it does today in America. That being said, abortion is undoubtedly the greatest human rights violation in the history of mankind. What human right could be greater than life itself. Abortion makes slavery look like an afternoon at Chucky Cheese. Of course no America loving American can be for it because our very founding document railed against the barbarism that would be snuffing out innocent human life on a whim, y'all remember "Life, Liberty and the pursuit of happiness right? Only one of these affects the other two absolutely.


All that being said I do not have an "absolute" moral stance against abortion. There are a few situations that I would be for it.

If for any reason the life of the mother is at great risk due to pregnancy or the birthing process then I would find that not only acceptable but even recommended in certain situations. It would wrong IMO morally for a bred woman with say 3 small kids that had 2-3 doctors tell her she could not birth that child without a huge risk that she would die. She would be dong a DISSERVICE to the kids she has. I realize and understand that this is a minute percentage of pregnancies, but those 4 every year I will march in the street for.

Next I would allow a woman who was raped to have an abortion. This would only really come into effect if she was enslaved while she was bred though so again minute. If she is not kept captive then she probably can go to the police and get the morning after pill, which I am also in favor of. Lastly if a child was bred by incestuous relations forced upon her then I would be okay with her aborting.

There ya go. My inner libertarian doesn't care if you pull the cute lil' baby out and play fetus football with him for whatever reason, you have to live with that not me (provided it doesn't cost me anything), but those 3 issues I listed I can't imagine someone being against aborting those lil' crumb crunchers.

Feel free to take to task any of the brilliance that has been bestowed upon you today. How do YOU, dear reader, see this issue? Follow the comments, this should be fun!
Atrocity?
Party time?
Somewhere in between?
Do tell.

391 comments:

1 – 200 of 391   Newer›   Newest»
Sassy Pants Freckle Face said...

Gucci mama is 100% correct here,..

Southern Sage said...

Sassy!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No way you buy that. So your daughter brutally raped and beaten by 17 Democrats over the span of 52 days end up bred and you Sassy are going to force that woman to carry the baby to term? The government with your undying support is going to not allow that woman to abort his child?

a 12 year old subjected to years and years of abuse by her father becomes bred and you, Sassy are going to make her carry that lil snot nose to term? Are you gonna give a wink and a smile to her daddy and send her home with him too?

My bride gets bred and all the docs say look there is no way you can birth this child and the child has a .0000001% chance of living anyway ,you are going to force my bride to have this child and take huge risk at dying and leaving my two young kids motherless?

I would hope no people with living kids would take this stand.

Gucci Mama said...

Sage. Come on, pumpkin. What first needs to be understood is that women almost never get pregnant as a result of rape. It happens between one and three percent of the time. Further, one in four pregnancies end in miscarriage. Still, while nearly impossible, it does happen.

The second thing you need to understand is that I am not forcing the woman to do anything. I didn't rape her, I didn't get her pregnant. Why don't we put the focus where it should be, on the evil of the crime rather than the "evil" of the pregnancy. There is no informed consent when it comes to abortion, especially when abortion is defined as some sort of "cure" or "treatment" for rape (which is most certainly isn't; since when do we treat trauma with trauma?). The number one reason women give for terminating their pregnancies after being raped is pressure from their doctor/mom/boyfriend/husband/whomever, NOT because they were in the state of mind to make a life altering decision in the aftermath of unspeakable trauma.

What would happen if we actually supported women, empowered them instead of making the concept of "rape babies" so taboo? What would happen if we stopped condemning the victim and baby and started condemning the rapist? What would happen if we, as a society, realized that the manner of conception in no way diminishes the value of the life or the right of that life to exist?

Continued below...

Gucci Mama said...

Furthermore, you deliberately misunderstood my "life of the mother" argument, as you well know. I'll state again that there is not a single condition known to medicine that can only be cured by an abortion after fetal viability.

I have lived this nightmare. During my eighth of nine pregnancies (this was my second successful one so I have two children - that's seven miscarriages and two babies for those of you who went to public school and can't do math) I was excessively high risk. I was very very ill. The baby wasn't growing. Three high risk OBs and two perinatologists recommended termination. Strongly. I found a fourth OB and third perinatologist who supported my daughter's right to life and we made a treatment plan that kept both of us alive.

There are always, always, always options besides termination in high risk pregnancy unless (as I mentioned in the post) we're looking at molar pregnancy and sometimes ectopic pregnancy which are always discovered early in the first trimester.

I did say, you will recall, that I do believe there is room for a doctor and a woman to discuss all the options, including termination, when the pregnancy is so high risk as to be life threatening to the mother or the baby, as it was in my case. I will concede that in that case a "choice" can be made, however, I do not understand how anyone could make the choice to kill their child to save themselves. I. Don't. Get. It.

Not only do we see medical miracles with younger and younger preemies every single day, as we did with my little three and a half pound girl, but since when does place of residence determine right to or value of life? If my three year old ran out in the street and I saw a car coming I would not hesitate to throw myself in front of the car to push him out of the way even if it meant my death. Surely I would try to save us both, but I would never ever ever put my life over the life of my child. What kind of parent does that?

Gucci Mama said...

But the main thing that annoys me about pro abortion advocates (can't WAIT for someone to jump on me for using the term "pro abortion" instead of "pro choice" - bring it on) bringing rape/incest and "life of the mother" into the argument is that these two excessively rare exceptions are cited as justification for abortion on demand for any reason at any gestation when everyone knows that 99% of abortions occur for the sake of convenience. I find that horrifying.

Southern Sage said...

The second thing you need to understand is that I am not forcing the woman to do anything. I didn't rape her, I didn't get her pregnant. (GM)

If we were talking about rape this would hold water but since we arent this is a sieve.

You, if your stance is, my daughter after being brutally gang raped can't opt for an abortion, then YOU are forcing my child to carry that baby to term.

Pure evil right there. As evil as the rape itself.

If my daughter chooses to abort and finds a doctor to abort this rape child will you then advocate having her jailed? Maybe the electric chair for her? Do tell.

Southern Sage said...

It would be a travesty if ONE woman died because every doc said she couldn't carry to viability and she left her family. No matter the smallness of the %. ONE is too many.

Gucci Mama said...

Would you support years of physical and psychological consequences for your daughter as a result of her abortion after being raped? Would you support her being told she has no choice because rape pregnancies are taboo, unacceptable? Would you support her enduring what many describe as "the second rape"? Would you be the one who holds her down on the table as a strange man invades her most private place with a foreign and unwanted object as she writhes and cries out in pain?

But see, women aren't told that when they're told to abort after rape. They're told it will "fix the problem". But it doesn't. Abortion is not a cure or a treatment for rape. I am for informed consent, but that's not even close to what we have. We have a society who tells women they can't do it, shouldn't do it, would be idiots to do it and because of that women lose. It's not nearly so much about the babies for me as it is about the woman. In my work with women in crisis pregnancies I encountered two victims of rape who were both more than 20 years post abortive. Twenty years after the fact both were still in intensive therapy not for their rape trauma, but for their abortion trauma. Because everyone made them think abortion was the only way to go. Everyone told them it was the easy way out, the only thing to do. That there wasn't a choice. And they've suffered for it for twenty years. I don't want that for your daughter, and neither do you. If you can ensure real, informed consent then talk to me. But you can't. It doesn't exist today.

I will say AGAIN that I support a woman being able to choose with her doctor whether or not to terminate a high risk pregnancy, though it AGAIN needs to be said that a condition does not exist that can only be cured by abortion after fetal viability. I cannot imagine, Sage, that if your daughter was drowning you'd let her sink rather than sacrificing yourself to save her even if it meant leaving her and your son fatherless. Any parent worth his or her salt would unhesitatingly lay down his or her life for their child. I can't imagine why this would be different just because that child happens to be living in a uterus temporarily. Still, once again - and I can state this with authority having lived it - there are always always always always options. I spent endless weeks on bed rest first at home and then in the hospital before my daughter was delivered prematurely. I was pumped full of medications and monitored constantly and it was awful. But I'd do it again in a heartbeat. Because that's what mothers do.

Southern Sage said...

GM: you are sounding like a Democat now. You say"Would you support her being told she has no choice because rape pregnancies are taboo, unacceptable?"

You are confusing your argument here, I am the one offering choice to the brutalized, it is you that wants to force taking the preg. to term, not me. Only one person here doing any forcing. I am for them being able to get rid of a pregnancy after being gang raped and brutally beaten.

Southern Sage said...

I'm not arguing who gets told what when where and how. That isn't the simple question. This is easy.

Dear reader, if a woman was raped and brutalized by a gang of thugs and becomes bred up, would you be for or against her being able to terminate the resulting pregnancy? If you are against that would you give the woman the death penalty or life imprisonment if she found a doctor to abort her baby as a result of being raped?

Seems to me that stance is further punishing the victim. Sad.

Gucci Mama said...

Alright, I was going to put my response on hold until you told me I sound like a democrat. Please. What I'm saying is that women right now are not given a choice. They are pressured by society and by doctors and by family to abort their rape pregnancies because "rape babies" are seen as more evil than the rape itself. That's not choice, that's being told what to do. I said I'm for informed consent, but that's not what we have. We have women being told their only decent option is to have an abortion. We have women who are not allowed to see the babies they're aborting on ultrasound. We have women who are not told of the risks of a largely blind medical procedure. We have women who are not informed of the significant post operative risk of infertility/difficulty carrying "wanted" pregnancies to term. We have women who are not informed of the significant psychological trauma that more often than not results from having an abortion. That's not choice, Sage. Not even close.

Heather said...

I believe Sage knows my stance on this issue, but I will say I agree with GM.

That rape victim has been thru enough, to think that aborting something that carries 50% of her genetic makeup will make anything better is ludacris. Where I agree with Sage and I believe GM agrees as well is the mother and fetus will both surely die if the pregnancy is continued to term. In that case alone is it okay to have an abortion. I must say, if the baby has gone past 20 weeks and the mothers life is found to be in jeopardy as well as the babies, there are 9 times out of 10 something a doctor can do to save them both. In the rare case that this is not true, it should come to an agreement between mother father and doctor and it should not be something political at all. I believe that abortion should be a LAST CHOICE always. It is a horrible procedure that will affect any woman who undergoes it whether she will admit it or not.

Southern Sage said...

pressured NEVER equals forced. EVER.
We aren't debating what someone should tell someone else or what nursery rhyme you should read to your kid. The question is is would you Gucci Mama force under penalty of law force a raped woman to carry the result of that rape to term because you GM will not allow her the choice to abort that baby? I'll keep asking! ;-)
it is a yes or no.

Y'all jump in im jumpin out for now!

singedwingangel said...

I am with GM on this one. IF we are able to tell a woman who has been raped all the' supposed' rules of abortion due to rape we also need to be FULLY divulging in the facts of what an abortion entails period. If we cannot do that then we certainly don't need to beat her over the head with the 'societal rules of behavior' in order to get her to have an abortion.
One would say well she would consistently be reminded of her attack. I would say that I would also be reminded that this baby also carried MY DNA, would have my hand influencing it's life and if I felt I could not support it due to it's circumstances of life alone I know of people who would love to be the guiding force in that baby's life.
James Robinson is a product of rape. He is now a well known teacher and humanitarian. He has no animosity towards his mother who chose life, he is forever grateful that she went against what society said she should do and cling to the idea that his reason for life did not have to mar his life itself.
I find it hilarious that everyone who is pro abortion has already been born.

Gucci Mama said...

I'll keep answering, then, Sage love, even though you don't like my answer. I support her informed consent. I support her knowing the lasting physical and psychological risks of having an abortion. I support her seeing that baby's heartbeat and its little limbs move on an ultrasound. I support her knowing the 97,000 ways she can get help and support if she chooses to recognize her child's right to life. If she knows all that, and you and I both know that this information in NO WAY factors into a rape victim's "treatment" when being told her only decent option is to abort, thereby compounding her trauma, and she still chooses to abort then that's on her head and I will do everything I can to facilitate her healing from the inevitable trauma that will cause.

Of course I don't think she should be imprisoned or given the death penalty. That's as outrageous as you meant it to be.

What I want is for women to really know what they're getting into when having an abortion (after rape or at ANY time) instead of being deceived. And what I really want is for this thing that almost never happens to stop being used as justification for abortion on demand.

Heather said...

I have given the stats before, as GM gave them. It is reported that less than 1% of abortions are because of rape and incest. With over 3000 abortions happening a day, I would say the abortion law isn't out there to help those victims. It is a act of murder 99% of the time. In the rare cases when it is justified, I agree informed constent is needed and I also think that it is a decision that should be made between the mother and doctor and in some cases the father. Never should the government have a right to say it is okay to have an abortion but not okay to make seeing the baby on Ultrasound a condition of the abortion. The government has overstepped its role in our society and women, in this instance, are paying a heavy price.

The Mama said...

I find it interesting that Sage spends the first few paragraphs stating that abortion is wrong, but that he doesn't have any moral issue with it. And that is the basic flaw within the "pro-choice" group.

"I know it's wrong and it's not a choice I would personally make, but it's okay for someone else."

It's either wrong or it isn't. We can't have it both ways.

The abortion "industry" makes millions every year preying on women who are by and large either uneducated or minorities. There is something very, very wrong with that. Think about how much things would change if we focused on education instead of just saying, "oh, oops you got pregnant, well here's the fastest way to take care of that...and only for the low, low price of $350!" How can we not see how demeaning that is?

Sassy Pants Freckle Face said...

SAGE,... oh such big words from someone who lacks a uterus,...

I know from very personal stories shared with me that,.. the horror and emotional hell caused by an abortion, would and could cause even more greif caused by a rape,..

I know of woman who are products of rape,.. I feel it is not a probility for a MAN to comment since he will never EVEr have to live through something as horrid as becoming raped, pregnant and have to choose to carry it or abort it,..and none of the wah wah garbage men can be raped,.. yes,..
but no matter if it is their sister, wife or daughter they will never be the one feeling it all,..

So when it comes to this,.. like Obama,.. you have no idea what you are talking about because in this life however you have no uterus,..

Point taken!

Putz said...

this is a mama debating with an arragant male who can't have babies>>>someone out to read my thesis, on motherhood is godhood>>>men are only sperm donors>>>women can create without the man>>>but man cannot>>in the heavens to come men will be drones, only serving the creation process as cheerleaders after the sperm has been separated from him>>>the priesthood will be governed by the female>>>>why do i say all this as i sit here and worship guccie mama, and detest myself and sage>>>the council of the egg i call it>>not tweolve apostles with christ at the head, but mother god with her twelve apostlets>>governing all with her council of eggs leaving the man more or less out>>>so i grovel at gucci mama's feet doing only her will>>>.why do i say all this>>>simply she has all power to continue life or terminate it, and she will judge us all and so i listen very carefully to her even though i shake in my liberal shoes>>>love you steph>>>the putz

Putz said...

oh by the way BIG O bama is wrong on this one, onlt time he has been wrong

Andrea said...

Sage's stance doesn't hold water.

You are either believe A) life is sacred and begins at conception, therefore abortion is wrong (period!) or B) Babies have no rights while in the womb, kill 'em if you want.

Option "B" is Sage's stance.

GucciMama makes a great point re: rape/incest. Killing a baby conceived this way is called SCAPEGOATING. Ever heard of it? The Nazis used it on the Jews, blaming them for Germany's economic ills, for one. It wasn't ok then, and it is not ok now.

Life is sacred. All life. Even when it is inconvenient/unpleasant. And, I didn't see this point brought up, but what you do in this life will follow you in eternity. Its true whether you believe in it or not. Abortion is pure evil. And it is a terrible black mark on the soul of the people "choosing" to murder innocent babies. Just because babies cannot scream doesn't mean they deserve to be sucked down a drain.

Major props to GM for sticking it through on her high risk pregnancy!!!

For those who choose death for their own children, there will be hell to pay. Literally.

Andrea said...

Oh and btw if I or even my own daughter were raped or pregnant via incest, YES, I would still want that baby. The baby is not the rapist. The baby is not guilty one. Something of beauty and love could still come of a hideous crime and overshadow it. And THAT is the best revenge of all against hatred and violence.

Anonymous said...

I personally know a family where the mother found out she had ovarian cancer when she was pregnant. In order to successfully treat the cancer she was told she would need to abort the fetus.

She chose not to do so. The cancer grew/spread rapidly and both mother and baby died. She left behind a husband and over 12 children.

Would I have made that same decision? It's hard to say until you are the one living it. However, in that scenario the woman should be able to have the option to make a decision that she and her spouse could support, knowing the potential consequences.

Also, while I agree that rape victims should understand all of their options (including carrying the baby to term), I don't think that they should be forced to do so. Just like they shouldn't be coerced to have an abortion if they don't want to.

The incest scenario is another that would be justifiable. However, in most cases, I personally feel that abortion is used as a way to escape consequences of poor choices that were already made before the pregnancy occurred. While it may seem like an easy way out (it most likely is for the man), I think that there are longterm consequences that may follow.

Heather said...

The cancer scenario holds no water.

From a study on cancer and pregancy
"...The group included 104 women who were diagnosed with cancer either during their pregnancy or one year following. The research found the rates of cancer recurrence, spread, and survival were approximately the same for the pregnant women as with non-pregnant women.

Beadle, an oncologist, told AP that there was no evidence that tumors grew faster in pregnant women than other women who dealt with a cancer diagnosis.

Ruth O'Regan, an associate professor at Emory University's Winship Cancer Institute in Atlanta, also told AP that cancer doctors can treat both mother and child without the need for an abortion.

"It's quite complicated, but all of us have been able to treat pregnant women successfully," O'Regan said.

Dr. Joel Brind, the president of the Breast Cancer Prevention Institute and a professor at Baruch College in New York, says studies like this one confirm what experts already know -- that abortion is unnecessary for pregnant women with cancer.

"You see, the amazing discovery that it is actually better for women diagnosed with cancer while pregnant (called gestational cancer) to carry the pregnancy to term is hardly news. It wasn't even news last year or twenty years ago. About 70 years ago, it was news," he wrote in a previous LifeNews.com editorial..."

Crazy Brunette said...

Okay, so I have to agree with both of you on several accounts.

I don't like the idea of abortion. Period. But I also think that it isn't my choice if some Jane Doe wants to have one... like Sage said, SHE has to live with that shit.

BUT, if a woman is raped... then I fully support her in whatever decision she wants to make. There is also the choice of adoption also. She could have the baby and give it up.

I can't imagine what I would do in that situation, or one of my daughters.

Then there is the issue of TEEN pregnancy, while I will agree that the little bitich should've kept her legs closed. I also remember how 'careful' I was in high school. I remember how I sometimes forgot depending on how drink I was! :)

If one of my daughter got pregnant at 14, while I would kill her... I would also let her choose what she wanted to do. I would like to keep the baby. I could even raise it if she wanted me to.

So I'm torn on all accounts. I think the only reason I would have an abortion is if I was raped. I DO understand its not the babies fault. BUT, how could I see it everyday and carry that baby for 9 months KNOWING that it was forced weather I wanted a baby or not.

I would never abort a baby because I was an irresponsible bitch, BOTH my kids were 'surprises' my first one at 19. I was scared shitless, but abortion wasn't an option for me.

Shelle-BlokThoughts said...

Okay all of you holier than thou women.

I know and more than one woman who has been raped and beaten and hated...and I mean Hated their child. Their child suffers all their life because they chose to have the baby.

I have met these children, some now adults and they suffer psychologically because their siblings are treated like people and they are treated like dirt because they were never wanted. It's horrible, but you choose to condemn them to that life because u believe the child's life, might be saved and well. Either way it's a gamble_but in those rare instances rape, incest, and health of the mother (even though it's rare)- should be a medical choice and an educated choice (as GM says) for sure.

Continued...

Shelle-BlokThoughts said...

If we are advocating for the child then let me attest that these people I know have lived a very hard life, they wish themselves dead and one has even taken their own life.

GM has worked and know the mothers, but she advocates for the life of a child.

And whoever says that Sage can't stand on his argument and we have to decide either way is dumb, especially because he doesn't have a fetus.

I don't believe in abortion except for the reasons he mentions. It should be a as I have said, an informed choice with choice (especially aware of the psychological affects of both mother and child).

Not all men are barbarians, some men want to understand and most I know are pro-life.

So I agree with both of you.

But am I horrible because I have a fetus and agree with Sage? (I do love to see him getting schooled by some of you with your sharp intellects and tongues!)

Oh and I was joking about the holier than thou--everyone knows I'm most holy.
I can agree with GM that they should be more educated about the procedure and even potential, psychological affects for both mother and child.

Annie D said...

Hmm, well I am not really in full agreement with Sage, but I am at least on that side of the argument. As a woman, with a fully functioning uterus, the point I most agree with Sage on is that it is none of my damn business what other people do. I am not going to waste my time and energy trying to push my morals onto anyone else. I have enough on my plate raising my own children to give a shit about the ones you decided not to have. In the end, I'd rather the 16-year-old down the street have an abortion than live on welfare funded by me for the rest of her life. Yes, I lack compassion. I have enough problems of my own to be concerned with everyone elses.

Heather said...

Has it crossed your mind that these women would have been horrible mothers regardless of the circumstances of the childs conception? Calling us holier than thou because we have an opinion that differs from yours is an unfair statement. I have a friend who was raped and has a beautiful son because of it. She chooses to look at him as a blessing instead of a horrible consequence. Knowing a few people who chose to treat their children like that doesn't make it a universal feeling.

Heather said...

And the fact that so many of you choose to advocate abortion for teenage mothers bothers me as I was a teenage mother. Not every 16 year old down the street is as immature as you think and maybe part of the reason they fail is because no one thinks they can succeed...

Gucci Mama said...

Shelle - First of all, and forgive me if this sounds harsh, but using the potential for a difficult life as a means to justify ending it before it begins is ludicrous. Everyone has shit to deal with. I grew up under the rule of a tyrannical father who I intensely wished to perdition on a regular basis. He had no love for me. Never once did I wish I'd never been born. Everyone has a story, everyone has hardship. The potential for hardship is no excuse for snuffing out life.

Secondly, I am of the opinion that men don't have enough say on this issue; the fact that they don' have a uterus makes little difference to me. Clearly I would not defend the paternal rights of a rapist and I know that's what we're talking about, but since it was brought up, the man is just as much a parent as the mother is, and the child is no more a part of the man's body than it is the woman's regardless of how dependent it is on the woman's body for a time. So I think dads should carry much greater weight in the decision making process than they do. Not that I agree there should be a decision at all, but you know what I mean.

You misread me when you take away that I only advocate for the child. The right to life is much more about empowering women for me than it is about "saving babies". I am sick unto death of the message women get from society that abortion is a quick, painless solution to a problem, that they can't or shouldn't become single parents, carry their "rape babies", become teen mothers, or whatever. That demeans and belittles women and it makes me ill.

Continued...

Shelle-BlokThoughts said...

Heather- I put continued on my comment for a reason...read it and you will get your answer to the holier than thou comment.

Secondly your argument of them being an unfit mother in the first place doesn't fly because regardless they chose to have the child and the child has suffered for it.

Definitely that is not the case with every rape,incest, victim that chooses to have the child but again, it's a gamble.

They chose to keep the baby because they thought they could handle it obviously.

But the children I worked with, that didn't seem to matter. Knowing they were conceived the way they were was very hard for them to take in.

Of course, that isn't always the case. I've just seen the reality of it.

Gucci Mama said...

I find it hypocritical to advocate for the right of only "desirable" babies to live. If we say "I'm pro life except in cases of rape" we're condemning an innocent victim to death based on a false sense of compassion for the rape victim. Studies have consistently shown that abortion after rape compounds the trauma rather than reducing it. If it's truly about compassion, then we need to love them both. We need to uplift, support, and cradle them both. And that might mean an adoption decision, that might mean a parenting decision, but it does not mean coercing a woman into an abortion with the message that it's the only acceptable "treatment" for her rape.

Gucci Mama said...

Annie - We legislate with regard to morality all the time! Drugs, prostitution, rape, incest, murder, theft - ALL of these laws are based on a moral code of behavior.

Gucci Mama said...

Sage - I meant to pose this question earlier...

Explain to us how you can possibly be for something that you yourself describe as "the greatest human rights violation in the history of time".

How can you accept the divide between the moral and the political when the political is morally bankrupt? Why would you accept something that is so obviously abhorrent even if it doesn't affect you? Because it has the potential to affect you; you have a daughter. But even if it didn't, don't other people's daughters matter? If you have the power to influence something for the better politically, why not do it?

Heather said...

I started my comment before your newer one came up. I had no way of knowing you would say that and then take it back.

Heather said...

Gucci Mama said...
I find it hypocritical to advocate for the right of only "desirable" babies to live.

I so totally agree.

alexis said...

i always used to be of the "i'm pro-life, but..." camp. i'm coming to see now that you can't legislate for the exceptions. i always hesitate to try and tell other women how they should live their lives, because most people have no desire to live the way i do. but i will say this: gucci mama, you have convinced me. perfectly written, completely intelligent.

you're totally right in saying that abortion tends to compound trauma, not fix it. after having children and having a miscarriage, i can't even imagine the kind of guilt i would feel at knowingly putting out the light of my own child. and true, some women aren't prepared to be mothers to babies that are the product of rape, but there are so many other options that don't include government-sanctioned murder.

thanks for the education, as always. you are a sexy bitch. and sage, sorry, but your position is not nearly as fabulous as gucci mama's.

The Mama said...

But you DO have to decide one way or the other. You can't say that abortion is wrong, abhorrent, a blight on the face of humanity and then say that it's okay. It's either wrong or it isn't. And if it is wrong then you have to look at abortion for what it really is.

Taking the life of another. Is there a real justification for that? I personally don't think so.

We get angry at the pro-life advocates because they display disgusting photos of aborted fetuses. If it's okay, then why does it bother us to see them? If abortion is okay, why do we not address the fact that Planned Parenthood targets minorities? Why do we get upset that in other countries, abortion is forced upon thousands of women yet ignore that we are basically guilty of the same thing under the guise of choice?

It's wrong or it isn't. And if it isn't, then those advocating it need to take away the pretty terminology and tell the truth. Something tells me that a lot of women would be making an entirely different choice.

(and all of this is coming from someone who had an "unwanted" teen pregnancy)

Shelle-BlokThoughts said...

Gucci- I don't think it harsh because I absolutely don't believe it's ludicrous. I can say what I said because I've worked with those children. You wouldn't be able to convince me otherwise. I'm sorry for your life and what you suffered and personally those children I know are important to me. It isn't black and white as you say, and I'll never be convinced.

For me it's the same as your argument that ALL rape victims who abort suffer from their decision to do that. Not true. I personally know two people who do not suffer from their decision to do so. They suffer from the trauma of the rape, but they feel absolute in their decision to abort.

By what means they chose to abort... I don't know?

And I know you know or have worked with women who chose to abort and suffer from it. I would never try or attempt to convince you that they are wrong in that.

The funny thing Gucci Mama is I agree with you that no one should be forced after rape or incest to abort. Not at all. I believe, like you, that they should be educated about it. But I don't believe that if they were raped and find out that they are pregnant, that they should not have the option. And I definitely don't believe they should be condemned for making that decision.

Abortion out of anything other than rape, incest, or health of the mother is still unacceptable to me. And NO i don't see that as hypocritical.

Gucci Mama said...

Mama - Perfectly stated.

Alexis - That makes my whole day. Seriously. You are one sexy bitch too. ;)

Shelle-BlokThoughts said...

Heather--that is why I put continued, so the whole comment would be read before others commented on it, because I'm allowed to joke around if I want. Say something, and then take it back. Because that is me, and my personality.

But truly am sorry if that still offends you.

Not my point at all.

Annie D said...

GM- I feel the same way about prostitution and drugs; if you want to fuck up your own life, have at it. If you die of a drug overdose or HIV from being paid for sex, it doesn't affect me. I'm not here to tell people how to live their lives. That is between them and whatever God they believe in.

Gucci Mama said...

Shelle - I never said "all" post abortive women regret their decision. But statistics show that somewhere in the neighborhood of 93% do. That's a pretty compelling number.

The fact is that life is life is life, no matter how it began. We either value life or we don't. We either believe that everyone has the right to life or that the right to life doesn't exist. You can't have it both ways.

Abuse in any form is absolutely horrifying, and I hate nothing more than to see a child suffer. But do we kill children from abusive homes to put them out of their misery? No. Do we assist their suicides? No. Do we determine that they never should have been born in the first place? No. A child is a child regardless of where it lives, whether that be in a uterus, a mansion, a hut, the street, an abusive home, or a loving home. Each and every child has the basic right to life and the right to live their life how they choose. It's not for anyone to say that someone else should or should not be born.

Shelle-BlokThoughts said...

ANd statistics mean nothing to me. Having taken an absurd amount of statistics classes in high school and college you just realize that you can sway them however you would like.

If one study doesn't work for you, then find another one.

Through out numbers, through out studies, but it is only those few cases they decided to study.

It sounds good and completely convincing, which is why they are so often used. But the studies are usually more specific and usually out of a very low amount of people compared to the general public.

Southern Sage said...

Ok I see Heather of course agrees with me. Cool.

Cluttered Brain said...

We have an interesting debate going. Hmm.
I wonder what side I am going to join?

First of all I totally agree with Gucci Mama 100%. We can rise ABOVE our childhood experiences...most of the time.

Take for instance, a mother who has been raped and is going to have the baby. Yes, it is hard to be pregnant but first she doesn't have to keep the baby. It would be EXTREMELY HARD to give the baby up for adoption but if the mother is 14 or 16, she might not have a choice. That is an awfully young mother.

if the young mother wants an abortion, i actually would understand that too. But understand this, it was not the fetus's fault. The rapist was the one that forced his "sperm" into the woman. The woman didn't ask for it.

Anyway, I'm not sure where I am going with this, so I am going to wrap it up.

Gucci Mama--Thanks for the education on your stance. It was lovely to read!
Sage-
I enjoyed reading your side of the argument/stance too.

Esp. what you said this Sage--
"pressured NEVER equals forced. EVER.
We aren't debating what someone should tell someone else or what nursery rhyme you should read to your kid. The question is is would you Gucci Mama force under penalty of law force a raped woman to carry the result of that rape to term because you GM will not allow her the choice to abort that baby? I'll keep asking! ;-)
it is a yes or no.

Y'all jump in im jumpin out for now!"

Aww man. I wish he hadn't said that. 'Cause he makes a good point. But I am still gonna have to side with GM because sometimes we as women have to go through rough times...That would be a rotten to go through but there are other options than abortion that you can do. R U telling me that the government is going to FORCE me to have an abortion?
That is WAY too much govenrment intervention then...*sigh*

i hope this makes sense. i haven't had my caffeine this morning. I'll check back later for more discussion. Really interesting debate from EVERYBODY too, not just GM and Sage.

Thanks for letting me join.

i usually don't talk politica with my friends because it always gets everyone heated and all...But this discussion has remained rather educational and enlightening. So I thank you for that.

Southern Sage said...

Singed.

The questions is would you Singed force by law a raped woman to birth a child of that rape? If you would under penalty of punishment by law then we disagree, if you believe that the lady that was brutally beaten and raped should be able to abort if she chose to then we agree.

Southern Sage said...

GM: I knew there was no way to disagree with perfectly stated intelligence. People who disagree with my 3 reasons women should have a choice are not being intellectually honest.

I'll keep answering, then, Sage love, even though you don't like my answer. I support her informed consent.

tytyty

Southern Sage said...

Heather:
Thank you, that is exactly what I said.

Gucci Mama said...

Annie - Again though, most all of the laws we have on the books today are based on a code of ethics and morality. The Supreme Court ruled in Bowers v. Hardwick that states can legislate with regard to morality.

Regardless of your personal code of ethics, illegal is illegal. We can't say on one hand that we oppose murder and theft and rape because they're morally bankrupt and they harm people and then say we support drug use, prostitution, and abortion even though they're morally bankrupt and they harm people.

And I guarantee you that if this issue were put to a popular vote in individual states, there would be overwhelming support amongst the populace for much greater restrictions. Which is why, of course, it's never put to a vote. The minority who stand in favor of it ram it through the courts instead.

Shelle-BlokThoughts said...

True Gucci Mama in all cases BUT rape and incest. Those people didn't choose to get pregnant. They were forced to.

So if they were raped then I value the life of that person deciding whether or not they want the baby that someone else forced upon them.

I can choose life and choose to support the one that was forced also.

i don't see a wrong in that sorry.

Those children in abusive homes and everything else you stated. Those children are here on earth, were born, so we help them how we can. Just as I tried and helped those children born as an account of their mother being raped.

I just agree that the mother should have the choice, but never forced.

You didn't say ALL, you didn't have to. But your absolute suggests it.

Miscarriages and then having to get a DNC is different. Those mothers WANTED those children. They had come to terms of wanting the baby. They chose to have sex. And in most cases was made out of love.

Nothing was FORCED upon them.

Southern Sage said...

Mama: I am an interesting sonofagun, good looking and honest too.

I havent' tried to have it both ways, I stated clearly 3 instances that it was ok to people who hold the high moral ground.

I do not advocate abortion in any other instance.

Putz said...

southern sage i do not agree with you>>>>::::in regards to abortions>>>>sometimes the purposes of god for these little fetesus are carried our simply because the women are more spiritual; than the men>>>>we would play football with the fetus but the women never NEVER would not accounting the cost so they are godeseses{listen to them} and we drones

Gucci Mama said...

Sage, for the FINAL TIME, I am intellectually honest as you well know, and you also well know that I only agree with you in a perfect world, which we do not live in. Therefore, I do not concede the point. The simple fact is that women are coerced into abortions following their rape. This is disgusting. Because this is not going to change, I absolutely do not support abortion even in cases of rape. Period.

Southern Sage said...

Sassy: All of that is babble and makes no difference whatsoever.

If you are going to coninue throwing em underhand I'll keep hitting them out of the park.

Do you, Sassy, believe that a woman who was brutaly raped MUST under penalty of law birth that child? Is that what you believe, that she cannot have an abortion of that rape caused child if she so chooses? Are you willing to make her a victim again?

Yes or no?

Heather said...

I simply think that women need to be given all of the facts. I think when the supreme court was trying to make it mandatory that women listen to the heartbeat and see the fetus on an ultrasound, they were doing the right thing. When you get a chance to see your baby, you get a chance to make a decision completely. I also think that every woman should be told of the procedure, how the baby is going to be removed, and what will happen afterwards. It isn't fair to say abortion is okay here and here and here but then not tell the women what is going to happen. Having had to make this decision on my own at 16 I feel for women who are trying to make the same decision. I decided to have my doctor show me my baby and tell me what would happen if I chose abortion. After all of the information was on the table, there was no way I could have EVER done that. No matter my circumstances. I have never been impregnated by rape, so I will not pretend to know what those women go through. Being a victim of such though, I can say that waiting for my period was scary but before it ever came I had decided that I couldn't in good conscience have an abortion with this child. There are so many dynamics to this debate. I believe information should not only be made readily available, but some things should be mandatory before a woman consider termination.

Southern Sage said...

Putz: sometimes a name says it all

Gucci Mama said...

Shelle - I've had seven miscarriages. The horror of that is not something that needs to be explained to me.

You say children that have been abused are already here so we help them how we can. Why can't we help babies as yet unborn as well? How is it that they, just as alive as children who's hearts beat outside their mothers womb, don't deserve to live?

Gucci Mama said...

Sage - Coercing a woman into having an abortion after she's raped is what compounds her trauma. Being empowered to realize that she CAN do it, it ISN'T evil to have a "rape baby", showing her the love and support she needs after her ordeal is the compassionate thing to do. Abortion is NOT a cure or a treatment for rape.

Southern Sage said...

Andrea: Simply not the case, please re read.

My bride had 3 miscarriages and 2 high risk pregnancies as well. She is not such a hateful mean person that she would even force a brutalized person to again become a victim. Shes a Christian she could never be so hate filled as to take that stance.

Shelle-BlokThoughts said...

See... your absolute is that you do not even support abortion with rape because you believe that women are coerced into having an abortion after rape.

Not true in all cases. What about the ones that decide that they want to abort all on their own, they are educated about it, know the consequences, and decide that they still can't even fathom carrying the child?

What about them.

You judge and condemn them because they chose, in most cases as soon as they could, to abort?

I just don't see how supporting them in that decision is morally wrong? Even though you have explained why for you it is... it doesn't make the case for me.

Southern Sage said...

Anon: Sad for sure.

Cluttered Brain said...

Hmm...
i still can't believe that last comment was published. it told me that it was TOO LONG...
HAHA!

Not sure if I agree or not. If a woman was severely beated and raped then she be allowed to abort her baby? by law?

This is what you believe?

Well, then i guess we somewhat agree.
But what about all those women out there that will never hold a child in their arms because they cannot carry a baby to term.

Should we not let them adopt a child then? Because if we start telling women that they MUST abort and not advocate for the child (adoption) that is probably what they will do.

I feel it is a catch 22 situation either way.

*sigh* Sage we might have to agree to disagree on this one.

GM-- We still agree, Because I will always stick up for the child. If we don't then who will?

(And the life of the mother should that be in trouble too)

Southern Sage said...

Cb: of course you wouldnt force a raped woman to birth that child, you are no victim hater.

Southern Sage said...

Shell: of course you agree how could you not? Usually you do like the others and throw me a softball, come on pitch me one.

Shelle-BlokThoughts said...

Heather-- Yes... now THAT I agree with. And I believe Gucci Mama believes the same as far as them knowing about the procedure of the abortion and seeing their fetus.

But I also believe they don't HAVE to have the ultra sound if they don't believe they could handle it. Rape and incest are such ugly things.

As far as getting pregnant when you don't want to be... or having surprise pregnancies, those are still different for me. It was a choice to have sex.

So the person you had sex with and impregnated you isn't someone who forced it on you.

Southern Sage said...

Annie: I don't know you but that is how I see it. My time and energy are much too important to be a busy body and worry about hat others do, as long as it doesn't effect me.

Southern Sage said...

Heaher I dont know who you are talking to down here under Annie but I never did advocate for abortion. I never said it was good or anything of the like.

Hence the reason there has not been one viable argument against mine.

Gucci Mama said...

Sage, that's an awful thing to say. And you know it. There is nothing hateful about empowering women. There is nothing hateful about choosing true compassion. The ABORTION is what causes the woman to become a victim again. Most rape victims report RELIVING THEIR RAPE during their abortions.

Shelle, There is no such thing as moral ambiguity. Something is moral or it is amoral. Killing a fetus is wrong or it isn't. All people, regardless of age, size, socioeconomic status, future potential, handicap, medical condition, or manner of conception have the right to life or they don't. I absolutely reject the "whatever's right for you" mentality. There is right and there is wrong. There is truth and there is untruth. And again, informed consent simply does not exist. It is the understood expectation of society that a woman pregnant by rape will abort. She is bombarded with the message that nothing else is acceptable. Furthermore, women are told from the time they are young girls that a fetus is nothing more than an amorphous blob of tissue, that abortion is quick and painless with no lasting consequences, that post abortion trauma is a myth. These are lies. And anyone who tries to set straight these lies is struck down as an extremist, a zealot.

I cannot in good conscience support something that is so obviously detrimental to women and children.

Lucy said...

In all honesty Most abortions are NOT for rape/, rape/incest or for the mother's health, c'mon?

What really gets underneath my skin and I haven't written posts on this before is OUR DOUBLE STANDARDS!!

Here is what I mean:

When the FETUS is WANTED! It is A BABY in the Mother's womb. Everyone is excited for the NINE MONTHS. They want to HEAR THE heartbeat. Sonograms ARE FRAMED, FRAMED. Baby showers are planned. And all that stuff.

But, when the baby is not wanted all of a sudden WE switch words, we call IT a FETUS, making it sound like IT is nothing. Obviously no heartbeats are discussed or sonograms, nothing. We do everything to make IT a NOTHING.

So, my question, if it we believe IT is nothing while in the WOMB why when THE IT is wanted we make such A FUSS over IT but when IT is not wanted then WE change IT to a NOTHING. I mean technically if we believe IT is not ANYTHING until it is born, women should be able to smoke and drink and do whatever they want while PREGNANT but when a woman is pregnant and WANTS the child she changes many of her habits??? Why? That implies we VALUE what is inside the woman, correct?

Please, someone has to see the double standard???

Shelle-BlokThoughts said...

In case of the rape and incest victim Gucci... no, I don't advocate for the child, I advocate for the mother to choose which she can deal with.

Sorry.

That is what I would do.

I know you have had miscarriages. That comment was directed to the lady who said she had a miscarriage and couldn't fathom aborting a baby ever.

That is all.

Being raped BY FAR is the worst thing that could happen to a woman. Being condemned for making a choice not to keep a baby is just as bad as feeling coerced into having an abortion in my book.

Sage--dude... I promise I don't love to agree with you. But we feel the same on this issue, so what's a girl to do?

Southern Sage said...

Putz: Ok you have won me over, the godeseses it is. Thank you.

Heather said...

Abortion is a nasty subject. I see beauty in every baby, in every face, and in every horrible situation. Without being like that, my life would be a whole lot different. I will concede that some people do not live like that and do not cope with things as well as I have. I count myself lucky and blessed that I have so much support in my family and the ability to turn even the worst situations into something bearable. I do see how some women could simply not do this, but I still think that all life is precious. I wish everyone could see it that way, but understand that not everyone feels as I do. I also understand the stance on rape and incest. I don't agree 100% but I understand.

Southern Sage said...

GM: I would really have never believed that you would hate a brutalized victimized woman so much you would make her carry the product of a brutal nasty rape to term if she didn't want to.

Gucci Mama said...

Lucy - Of course I see the double standard. That's what I'm talking about. I use the term "fetus" because people love to jump on that, but reality is "fetus" is merely the Latin word for "baby".

Everything you said is very obviously correct.

I stand by my assertion that life is life and the manner of conception in no way diminishes the value of that life.

Southern Sage said...

Heather: of course everyone should be informed and such. Nobody disagrees. ALL I said was a raped woman should be forced to birth the kid if she doesnt want to.

Southern Sage said...

GM: I re-read mine 31 times it never said I was for coercing anyone either way.
I'm not trying to cure or treat rape either.

I just can't imagine forcing a woman, because you won't let her choose abortion, to birth a baby caused by a rape.

Shelle-BlokThoughts said...

"There is no such thing as moral ambiguity. Something is moral or it is amoral. Killing a fetus is wrong or it isn't. All people, regardless of age, size, socioeconomic status, future potential, handicap, medical condition, or manner of conception have the right to life or they don't. I absolutely reject the "whatever's right for you" mentality."-- I don't believe in all cases that whatever is right for you is okay. Especially if the conception was done with both parties in full agreement with it.

But don't tell me a person that was raped doesn't have the right to choose her path... she was forced into rape. She can choose not to keep that baby in my book.

Lucy--if they weren't raped or being forced to have sex with a family member or the health of the mother is harmed--then NO I dont' agree with it.

Heather said...

Rape isn't the worst thing that a woman can go through...

Shelle-BlokThoughts said...

Sage said, "I just can't imagine forcing a woman, because you won't let her choose abortion, to birth a baby caused by a rape."

Me either.

I don't get it.

Shelle-BlokThoughts said...

Sage said, "I just can't imagine forcing a woman, because you won't let her choose abortion, to birth a baby caused by a rape."

Me either.

I don't get it.

Shelle-BlokThoughts said...

Heather: As far as sex and getting pregnant?

Southern Sage said...

Clutter Brain: sorry I missed this so the reply is out of order.

It saddens me that you would force a 12 year old bred by her daddy to birth that child. Or the woman gang raped by 37 Democrats to birth that child. Sad Sad Sad.

I can not believe you even typed this, I am sure you will edit it since you had coffee.....

But I am still gonna have to side with GM because sometimes we as women have to go through rough times..

Damn, I haven't the words.

Shelle-BlokThoughts said...

I need to go pick up my daughter from her dance class. Thanks all. Great conversation.

Later

Lucy said...

I meant to write I have written posts on this topic before, oops!

Gucci Mama said...

Sage, I don't ever take political debates personally, as you know, but you are making this personal. Stop it. You're offensive. I have nothing but love and compassion for all women and babies, especially those who have endured unspeakable tragedy. I have endured unspeakable tragedy myself, so these women hold a very special place in my heart. What I want to prevent is a compounding of their heartache and pain.

I've said about nine thousand times that you would be right in a perfect world. But the world we live in is very far from perfect. If women, even rape victims, realized the trauma their abortions would inflict, almost all of them would choose a different path.

I've also stated that if a woman chooses an abortion with what she believes is with her eyes open, I will do everything I can to walk her along the path to healing when the inevitable reality of the abortion trauma hits her.

Don't ever accuse me of hatred. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Southern Sage said...

Ok Cluttered: whew!
Of course you agree with that. Nobody is that damn hateful.

Heather said...

I didn't see it in relation to sex and pregnancy only. I understood it as you saying "Being raped BY FAR is the worst thing that could happen to a woman." Sorry if I missed the context.

Gucci Mama said...

Sage, I know you're not for coercing women, but the fact is that women are coerced. THAT'S what I rail against. I'm talking about this from a position of the reality we live in. You're stating it from a position of the reality you WISH we lived in.

Southern Sage said...

GM: it is pure hatred to force a woman to birth a rape baby if she doesnt want to.

That is undeniable and irrefutable.

You empower women by taking away that choice?

Come on Sunshine you don't even believe that.

Sassy Pants Freckle Face said...

SAGE,....

I am going to TRY to PRETEND YOU ARE MAking Sense,..

But it is Really hard for me to FAKE STUPID!!

Until you grow a vagina,.. Theses quetions ask of me will be unanswered,...

Oh and one last thing,... Abortion and RAPE DO NOT GO HAND AND HAND

It is something Leftites have been throwing in the fire since the 80's or earlier

RAPE IS VILE,..

Abortion KILLS A WOMANS SOUL, even if they don't think so

It is a Personal choice, it will always be a choice but it should NEVER be a RIGHT~ Abortion that is,...

RAPE should BE punishable BY DEATH

Southern Sage said...

Lucy: that isn't the debate. I am against abortion morally UNLESS it is the product of:
1. Rape
2. Incest
3. The mother is going to die

Then I say it is optional.

Southern Sage said...

Heather I knew I could tickle your logical common sense side!

Gucci Mama said...

No, Sage. I don't empower them by taking away their choice. I empower them by allowing them to know the reality of their choice, which right now they are not allowed to know. They are not allowed to know that abortion will exponentially increase their trauma. They are not allowed to know that it's okay to give birth to a baby conceived by rape. They are not allowed to know that they deserve to allow their babies to live. They are not allowed to know that they can do it. Because every voice they hear is telling them the opposite. That is not choice.

Heather said...

I also wanna say that I would never FORCE anyone to do anything. I do not agree with the Roe v Wade ruling but since it is there and stands to this day I have no right to FORCE anything. I do however think that the ruling should have been more clear and concise. I believe that a woman has a choice to make, but that choice should be made after all of the facts are given to her.

Gucci Mama said...

All of the caveats for rape/incest/"life of the mother" (though that argument is so silly and easily refuted that it's a waste of time to mention it again) existed before Roe.

Southern Sage said...

GM: I am not making it personal.

How is saying a woman who was beaten and raped and bred can under no circumstance have an abortion compassionate??????????

I'm right in any world. NOBODY should be able to force a raped woman to bear the fruit of that brutalization. Any other stance is hateful to that woman.

I said several times that you agreed with me so that makes you right.

It is hateful to not let a raped woman abort. PERIOD.

Gucci Mama said...

You're making it personal by calling me hateful. The simple fact is that women do not have the choice in today's society. Not really. Technically having the ability to say "yes" or "no" is not the same as having a real choice. It is assumed by everyone, and that assumption is backed by the force of societal norms, that a woman pregnant by rape cannot possibly allow the baby to live. Remove the stigma of a "rape baby" and then talk to me about choice.

Southern Sage said...

Sassy: of course they will go unanswered. They can not be honestly answered except how I clearly stated it. Why do you think nobody answered except in the same way I stated it.

I hope you keep commenting you are making my whole point!!!!!!!

It is a Personal choice, it will always be a choice but it should

Amen

Rape should be punished by years of torture then death!

Lucy said...

Listen, life sucks and many times we have to go through hard things abortion has made it easy for many women to not have to go through hard things, they abort their problem and move on. It really is the American way, we like to take the easy way out, bail outs, hand outs, whatever. Abortion is the easy way out.

Southern Sage said...

Gm: keep agreeing and we'll have to get married.

I am not arguing the meahod, I am not arguing any of thet. I simply stated that a raped woman should be able to abort if she decides that is best for her.

anyone who doesn't disagree with that agrees by default. Which of course I knew they would if they have a coherent thought.

Southern Sage said...

Heather: Again my exact stance.

Southern Sage said...

GM: again EXACTLY my stance.

Gucci Mama said...

But you can't argue the practice without arguing the method, Sage! You can't! That's the whole point! Right now women DON'T have the choice, as much as you want them to. That's reality.

Sassy Pants Freckle Face said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Southern Sage said...

GM: It isnt personal, that is a hateful stance. I am not debating choice. I am debating if or not a raped woman should e able to have an abortion.

That is the entire debate.

Sassy Pants Freckle Face said...

SAGE<... You brought up my daughter getting Raped,.. Your Words are Vile,.. You have a penis,.. right? you DO NOT OWN A VAGINA,.. Your Comments Are boundless,.. because you will never have the oppertunity to have a child,.. or abort it,..

Sounds like someone has Vagina ENVY

Southern Sage said...

Lucy: I knew you and I would agree fully.

ty

Heather said...

Y'all are given me something to do today. Thanks so much. Work is slow and I'm trying to keep my mind off of my constant bloated feeling THIS fetus is giving me. LoL

Southern Sage said...

GM: Sweets you said women do not have a choice?

Ok I missed something I thought women could have abortions now if they were raped.

I misread the law I reckon.

Gucci Mama said...

But you have to debate it within the context of the real world, Sage. Your take is impossible in today's society. So until you can change that, your take is wrong.

Gucci Mama said...

Read it again, love. I said they have the technical ability to say "yes" or "no". But there is no real choice without informed consent which you must admit does not exist.

Southern Sage said...

Sassy: you misread me evidently. I have vagina covetness!

My words are not vile, it is a legit question. As are all the questions I have asked.

I do have a penis.

My comments, as evidenced by the agreement perfectly stated and spot on.

Southern Sage said...

Heater you are welcome!

Sassy Pants Freckle Face said...

No you want a Vagina,..

Southern Sage said...

GM: ok then, you should be champioing education. That wasnt the debate though. I say there are times when it is ok.

That is all.

Everything else discussed is off topic. And nobody disagrees (well coherently anyway)

Southern Sage said...

Sassy: No Hunny Britches, I want em all!

Sassy Pants Freckle Face said...

see Vile, point taken!

Heather said...

I sometimes feel like a heater...

I believe that Sage is saying that BECAUSE he has a penis, he would never tell a woman with a VAGINA what to do with it if it was invaded and impregnated. I believe we should thank him for not trying to use his penis to make us do what he wants. We should also understand that a man will see things differently than a woman and that by saying he would not ask a woman to carry a child conceived by rape that he is showing true compassion...

Sassy Pants Freckle Face said...

oh! and Don't call me honey britches, I got Crab Grass!

Gucci Mama said...

Yes, I absolutely champion education. Your point is valid ONLY if that education exists which it does not. Again, we have to have this debate in the real world, not in the world you wish we lived in.

Southern Sage said...

Sassy: LOL what is grab grass?

Southern Sage said...

Sage: if being a lover and champion of females is Vile, guilty as charged.

Southern Sage said...

Shit I just replied to myself! That should say Sugar Britches Sassy!

Sassy Pants Freckle Face said...

yeah yeah grass muncher

Southern Sage said...

Heather: If your current situation ever goes away, drive south!
;-)

that is EXACTLY what I am saying.

Jenn said...

Holy shit! My brain is going in circles reading this. I am very opinionated on most political discussions, but this is one I have a hard time with. I have thought I stood where Sage is with this but after reading GM opening statement, I was swayed. Then I read Sage's question about taking that choice away from a person who was FORCED by rape and I was swayed again. I really believe what GM said about women of rape being made to feel they really don't have a choice because to be honest, whenever I thought of a woman being raped, I just assumed she'd have an abortion because that is such a big focus of the debate, it starts to seem like there really isn't an option. That no women of rape would even consider keeping the baby. But when put in terms of "The baby didn't do anything wrong", it makes me think. Ugh!

I also think that women who really want children and aren't able to or have multiple miscarriages feel really strongly about abortion NOT being an option under any circumstance. I've had several miscarriages myself and I know how much that sucks to think that women are aborting their babies when all you want is to have one.

I found it interesting that someone who agrees with GM (can't remember who it was) said that "abortion is the easy way out", but yet that is completely the opposite of what GM is saying. She has consistently and articulately stated the after-affects of having an abortion - possibly physically and probably mentally - make it anything but easy.

Ok, I'm not making much sense or contributing much to this conversation. Sorry. Thought I was going somewhere with this but guess I really wasn't.

Southern Sage said...

To bic or not to bic that is really the question.

Sassy Pants Freckle Face said...

Pattern monkey!

Southern Sage said...

Jenn: the swaying is the reason for the whole post!

In actuality GM and I agree on 99.8% of politics and 99.621 of abortion.

Southern Sage said...

Sass-a-frass I am lost not. I concede!

Gucci Mama said...

Jenn - I think what you said makes perfect sense. And you make a valid point that my opinion on this is likely swayed by my personal tragedy. Seven times my broken failure of a body has failed me and failed my babies. Seven times. I cannot begin to describe that pain. I don't need to, since you know it too. And so yes, there is little that breaks my heart more than seeing a woman discard her sacred ability to nourish new life. Not a lot makes me more sad than that.

Sassy Pants Freckle Face said...

Wow it comes out, YOU ARE HUMAN<>>> Welcome BAck!

Tit for Tat said...

Gucci Mama

So does that mean we can lock up all the mothers for child abuse because they smoke while pregnant, drink while pregnant?

Also, when does personhood begin. For the most part a fetus has no chance at survival unless the mother decides to let it. Afterall without her body it cant feed, or breath. In the early stages it cant think, feel, see. Is the term personhood applicable at this stage? Come on, are you really prepared to take away the rights of the mother and father because you believe that the fetus, child, collection of cells or whatever you want to call it, the same as everyone else? Personally if its not on your dime it aint your concern.

Heather said...

I believe I live further south than you Sage hun. If I go any further South I'll have Mexicans jumping in my pickup truck...

I should drive east though maybe???

Gucci Mama said...

And Sage is right. We agree on almost everything. The disagreeing makes things interesting. And the swaying is what it's all about; these are things we need to consider. And we need to evaluate why we stand where we do on these issues. So the debate is good.

Gucci Mama said...

Tat - The general medical consensus is that life begins at conception. The heart begins to beat at a mere 18 days gestation. The fetus is not a part of its mother's body like an arm or a leg. It is absolutely a distinct person. Since when do rights of the mother trump rights of the child, regardless of where the child currently lives?

About smoking/drinking while pregnant - lock them up? No. Mandate treatment? You bet.

Sassy Pants Freckle Face said...

TITTY BOY!!! EFING YES We should Lock up THOSE Women!!

Southern Sage said...

Damn Tat I thought you were gonna leave me here all day with these hot chicks! I have them in my corner now so hands off!

Heather said...

I am 15 weeks 3 days pregnant. Just past the 1st trimester at which I would be able to abort. My baby has fingerprints, it can sense light through my abdomin, it has some auditory function. It can feel when I push against it, and my last U/S showed when I pushed on my abdomin, it flexed away. It has a strong heartbeat, and breaths inside me. When does life begin? I believe it already has, and I am but a vessel until it has fully developed.

Southern Sage said...

Hmmmm Heather I was thinking Va. Ok hit I-10 go eat, when you hit the water you went 2 hrs too far!

Southern Sage said...

Woot woot Congrats Heather!

Sassy Pants Freckle Face said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Tit for Tat said...

Its not a distinct person. It is ATTACHED to its host. Without the host it doesnt live. Even with the best medical advances at this stage it is IMPOSSIBLE for it to survive without its host. So you are wrong regardless of what your information on Personhood is. I will reiterate, its not your business at the early stages. Its solely in the realm of the parents.

Anonymous said...

Well, I have to agree with Sage's 3 situations (and with Shelle). I think it is harsh & cruel to say that the options and personal choice would be taken away in those circumstances. Yes, there should be education so that the woman has all information necessary to make a truly informed decision, since either way it has long term consequences.

As a woman, I also find the argument that abortion in the case of rape should be outlawed because women are coerced to have one in that situation. Yes, it isn't the child's fault, but the woman ultimately has to make a decision based on what she feels she can bear. I like to think that women are capable of making their own decisions when presented with all of the facts, regardless of what someone else's opinion is. (I know that I am) Implying that they are so weak that they cave to pressure when they wouldn't otherwise do so sheds a bad light on the female gender. I don't buy into that at all. If the woman wants to proceed with the pregnancy in that case, great. If not, I think it is harsh that other women are passing judgement about it.
~JT

Heather said...

LMAO at Sassy! TITTY BOY! Also, women who smoke and drink during pregnancy are selfish women in my eyes.

Sassy Pants Freckle Face said...

Heather, it is 5 weeks,.. you cannot have an abortion till 6 weeks

Gucci Mama said...

Tat - An infant can't survive without parents either. A three year old can't survive without parents. There are teenagers who couldn't survive without parents. That doesn't hold up at all. You cannot kill an infant, a toddler, or a teenager for convenience sake. The only thing a fetus needs to become viable is nourishment and time to grow. The only thing a two minute old infant needs to become and adult is nourishment and time to grow. There's not a moral difference between the two, nor is one life more valuable than the other.

Southern Sage said...

JT: I agree.

Heather said...

On this, Tit, you must concede that until you carry a fetus in YOUR womb, you do not know the definition of when life begins. There is no reason to abort a perfectly viable fetus, with the exception of very rare cases, just because "it couldn't live without you anyways". My child couldn't live without me now. If I left her at home alone for 2 weeks she would no doubt die. She cannot dial a phone, nor feed herself. So has her life not began?

Heather said...

Sassy, I mean that I am just past the point of being able to abort. After the 2nd trimester begins, in my state, you cannot have an abortion. I didn't mean I am just now able to have one.

Sassy Pants Freckle Face said...

O well I am HAPPY 4 You! I love me some babies :)

Lucy said...

I am still trying to follow this debate to a certain degree.

I think the issue being discussed is the fact that women who become pregnant from a rape have been made to feel they must abort. When I debate I prefer numbers and I will be honest I don't have time to research the numbers now. I would like to know if anyone knows the number of abortions attributed to rape? I would then like to know what that percentage is out of all abortions? I understand the point is that a rape victim should still be able to have a choice meaning, we should lose the stigma of associated with raising a baby from rape but my point is Abortion is a larger issue and this has to be even smaller.

Lastly, I am the person who stated, "abortion is the easy way out for a woman". I stated this because most women choose abortion over raising an unwanted child because they rather deal with the psychological problems of abortion than the life long responsibility of parenting or live with giving up their child.

Once again, I prefer to debate with research and numbers, something I lack in this debate. I do not have the numbers on how many women end up in therapy from abortion?? It would be interesting to know this because Americans are not fully informed on the repercussions of such a procedure. In addition, I have always wondered how a woman who chooses abortion feels later when she chooses to have a child?? Does she deal with her choice of abortion? Do 'we' meaning Americans eventually pay for her therapy in the long run? You know through insurance or eventually our great Paid For Health Care system by the government.

Doesn't that bother you as an American? That first we will pay for AN ABORTION because that was included in health care (don't get me started on that) and then possibly we will have to pay for Therapy??

Therefore, when I said, "easy way out" I was referring to the fact that the woman took care of her immediate problem quickly. As far as her emotional health that is something each woman has to deal with and it is never fully discussed or disclosed.

Southern Sage said...

I'm with you on the pay for it Lucy, I'm damn sure against that!

The % is low for sure, but not even one woman bred by rape should have to birth that child should they choose not to.

Heather said...

Lucy, the numbers on this are very weak. You must remember that many women do not report their rape in the first place. What numbers we do have are that under 1% of abortions are done because of rape and incest. That of course comes with a margin for error because those same women that will not report the rape will most likely not report the rape as the reason for the abortion. With that, the numbers of abortions in this country, over 3000/day, even given the large margin for error, are still committed for convenience.

Jenn said...

The problem is that with Obamacare we will be paying for abortions. Two states have just implemented it and I'm sure others will follow. THAT I feel strongly about. No way should we pay for people's abortions.

Lucy said...

Heather: Thank you for the numbers, I am just a number gal, when debating and didn't have the time to look them up, thanks again!

Southern Sage said...

Obama and Obama care make me want to frickin spit up.

Heather said...

Obama makes me want to friggin spit... That is all. Everything about him makes my morning sickness start to act up all over again.

Lucy said...

Oops, I didn't mean to start the Obamacare debate (LOL) but I was livid when they put Abortion in the package. OMG!! I went off in my house. To me ABORTION is an elective procedure. Therefore, if you put Abortion in then hell, I want plastic surgery put in. You know, I want the government to pay for me to get NEW BIG BOOBS!!! You know that will help my self esteem and good for my mental health and blah, blah, blah. I was pissed!!!

Gucci Mama said...

Lucy - Pregnancy occurs from rape between one and three per cent of the time. One in every four pregnancies end in miscarriage. This means that around one per cent of abortions annually are performed as a result of rape.

Approximately 93% of women report some degree of post abortion trauma.

The reality is that rape is not something that should be discussed as a catch all for unrestricted abortion because it almost never happens. 99% of abortions are performed for convenience sake alone.

Gucci Mama said...

Also, each abortion reduces the statistical possibility of future fertility by as much as a third. Forgot that one.

Gucci Mama said...

Should have said 93% of post abortive women report some degree of post abortion trauma, obviously.

Southern Sage said...

Lucy I also want so plastic surgery cept I need a reduction!

Southern Sage said...

I hpe nobody read my post and thinks I am for unfettered abortions or abortion on demand. That isn't my stance. All things equal I would vote for the candidate that wanted to ban it outright. I am for the pre r-v-w rules, as stated above. I am also for educating a rape/incest victim fully before she decides, my take is if they decide to abort after educating then so be it.

When people participate in THE ONLY act that can result in pregnancy and end up bred then I am against abortion morally. She chose when she spread em. But the pregnancies from forced relations I can see where it is compassionate to allow that woman to get that out of her body as she didn't choose the activity that caused it.

It is impossible for someone not to see it that way.

JoJo said...

I think GM articulated it perfectly. Every time a thought popped into my head to add to her brilliance I kept scrolling down and she immediately covered it!

The issue with rape has always been a conflict being that I'm a pro-lifer. Though I feel compassion towards any woman who was a victim of such cruelty, murdering a helpless baby does not rectify the situation. It's basically a scapegoat utilized by society to absolve their own guilty feelings regarding the subject.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

When a baby is first born, it would never be able to survive on it's own without the nurturing of an adult just like a growing fetus needs the nurturing habitat of the uterus to survive. However, murdering a baby would be considered a crime once it's been delivered, yet murdering a viable fetus is acceptable? I don't see the difference. They both are dependent beings with the potential to grow.

The only somewhat differing stance I had (which my change as GM is fairly convincing) was defining life as beginning at conception. I agree that it is scientifically and biologically proven that the fetus has a beating heart by two weeks gestation. To me, anything with a beating heart is living and viable. Therefore, I believe two weeks following conception is when life begins.

Sage mentioned the idea of using the morning after pill. I have no qualms with the morning after pill as the first few days of conception only consists of a bunch of cells multiplying and dividing via mitosis and meiosis. These cells eventually transform from a blastocyst into an embryo, but during the period of massive cell division I don't consider the cells to be living and as GM mentioned many of these pregnancies end in miscarriage or spontaneous abortion and you wouldn't even know it. Once the heart starts beating by the fourteenth day, it is a live viable fetus and any action taken to destroy it is murder.

With that being said, a victim of brutal rape would be entitled to take the morning after pill to prevent the potential for pregnancy so future abortion would be unnecessary.

I also have another stance on abortion concerning the rights of the father. Assuming hypotehtically two people have consensual sex and become pregnant. Let's say the woman want's an abortion, but the man prefers to save the life of the child. It is always the woman's choice because it's her body, but the child is half of the man's DNA as well and should he not have a choice over the life of his own blood because he can not anatomically carry it himself?

Furthermore, now that I'm reading through some of the comments I have to politely disagree with Shelle's opinion regarding what makes a life worth keeping. I hate to play the God card, but who are you to define what is worthy or not worthy of living. People have shitty upbringings regardless of whether they were a production of rape, adoption, poverty etc., so should we just kill them all off with the assumption that their lives will have little value? Maybe we should take it one step further and kill off people that may genetically acquire depression because there lives will probably suck as well.
You don't know what anyones future holds and there is now way of predicting that.

I will have to come back and read more of the comments later. I just added another means of procrastinating studying for my boards....

JoJo said...

no* not now.
I hate typos dammit!

Southern Sage said...

JoJo: on the rape debate. I am not advocating a third trimester abortion for the raped. I find it barbaric that a woman who after being brutally raped should be forced by the government to carry that child to birth.

How could you force a woman to do that? Two wrongs don't make a right, you said that and I agree fully.

Why should Me, you, GM, Shell whoever get to decide what a raped womans choices are? She didn't decide to be raped, she didn't deserve to be raped. So her being in a situation that is not of her doing we as a civilized society are going to compound that by stating she absolutely has no options? So she was taken against her will and WE are going to force her to AGAIN AGAINST her will to carry the result of that to term?

That is insanity.

I don't think you believe that you JoJo has the right to tell that raped woman she can't abort.

Do you? Is it your call?

Gucci Mama said...

Sage - That's the most coherent way you've explained your stance in a hundred plus comments. And I will concede that informed consent in the situation you describe only makes sense. But as I keep saying, we don't have informed consent at all. We have expectations and coercion. So how do we fix that? And, more importantly, how do we stop the perception that abortion at any gestation for any reason must be kept legal because women very rarely get pregnant after being raped?

Southern Sage said...

You never vote Democrat. That is first. You get involved. You advocate. You give your time.

You DO NOT picket Planned Abortionhood. You write letters to your senators and congressmen. You give money to people who campaign on pro-life.

See the ONLY reason abortion is legal today is because of judges, the majority of the country is opposed to abortion on demand. It would never pass a vote. In the very least it should be a states rights issue and not a federal issue.

The ONLY thing the president is truly responsible for is judge appointment, so thank the liberals for that.

All you can do is get involved. Teach your kids. that is it.

Southern Sage said...

You get informed. You go to the Ta Party rallies.
You make your view known to your representatives. You hold them accountable.

Gucci Mama said...

Sage - You and I are in perfect agreement with what you said in your last two comments, for sure.

Shelle-BlokThoughts said...

JoJo- politely disagree? Ha. Funny. It's okay to disagree but it wasn't all that polite.

Either way, I don't believe you got through all of the comments, because if you had you would have found out that I don't believe we should kill off a baby just because it MIGHT have a crappy life. But I stated what I have seen because I know keeping the baby isn't always bed of roses.

The argument is that GM believes, and in some cases it is so, that women have trauma more so after the abortion than if they were to just keep the baby.

I know of instances that the trauma, as far as I have seen, seem just as traumatic for the rape victim when they have kept the baby, as well as the affect on the child.

I used that as an example.

JoJo said...

Grrrr sage I'm never gonna get back to my studying!

I absolutely don't have the right to tell a victim of rape or anybody for that matter what their choices in life are. If they want to go to college, that's their choice. If they want to wear pink, I'm not complaining.

I do however, have the right to promote the right to life and to forbid and penalize any actions that disregard that concept.

We are all able to make our own choices in life, but when it comes to unethical and legal issues, such as murder, stealing, etc., there are no choices in the matter. It is simply not acceptable to murder someone unless it is physically for self defense. The fetus has not done anything to the rape victim. The fetus did not commit a crime. Why is it okay to excuse murdering an innocent being because the rape victim suffered by the hands of someone else?

I see how you're trying to convince me of your stance, but the way I see it, is the act of abortion in this case is simply a defense mechanism.
You, society, or the victim have no control over the actions of the rapist. What you do have control over is the life of a helpless fetus who can't speak up for himself. You can't control the first situation, so you displace those feelings making the fetus the culprit and destroying him in the hopes of curing the trauma. As GM stated this only worsens the initial trauma creating much more psychological and emotional problems in the future.

Shelle-BlokThoughts said...

GM- your stance isn't reality as you seem to say. I know this for a fact. There is one rape victim for sure who feels her decision to abort was good for her. You say you don't think all women are coerced into getting an abortion because a rape baby is taboo-yet you say if they decided to abort even after being educated that you would and I quote, "I've also stated that if a woman chooses an abortion with what she believes is with her eyes open, I will do everything I can to walk her along the path to healing when the inevitable reality of the abortion trauma hits her."

Inevitable in my book means that you believe they all will feel traumatized if she chooses to abort a baby forced into her by an ugly act.

I also think that most women are smart enough to not be coerced, especially nowadays, I would bet that they would do whatever they could after being raped to find out what would be best for them.
The absolute that they aren't "really" given a choice is just hard to believe. Teen rape, sure, but not someone older than that. To much information available at the touch of our fingers.

I'm typing this on my BB so I probably won't respond much because it takes too long for comments to load.

Gucci Mama said...

Shelle - Just to be clear, post abortion trauma occurs in an estimated 93% of post abortive women in general, but the number is even higher in post abortive rape victims. It's not "some". It's "most" or "many".

Still, what Sage said makes sense, if women were allowed to know this instead of repeatedly being told post abortion trauma is a myth crafted by the "religious right" and if they were told of the myriad physical and psychological consequences of an abortion, if they were told that most rape victims describe their subsequent abortions as "the second rape" and they STILL want to kill their babies? Well, in that instance I suppose I cannot take their "choice" away, even though the thought of it absolutely repulses me.

The thing is, there is no such thing as informed consent as things stand now. And I cannot support it without true informed consent.

Southern Sage said...

Also I went to pee and thought of this as well.

When you have an absolute stance it tends to turn people off.

Lets take something else for instance religion. If you stand in the middle of the mall and scream everyone who isn't a baptist is going to hell!!!!! Fire will burn you up!!!! etc etc
you scare many many more than you convert. So when people picket and spit on doctors and stuff like that it HURTS the cause. (No matter the cause)

Debate from a stance of logic and like one commenter said, numbers, facts and not emotion. (again any subject)

Concede points made. See liberals will shut down, they won't debate, the far left will NEVER debate, they have no facts, but when they say "What about rape" concede instantly or the overall argument gets lost. If yo concede that then you can get to the bigger issue, the issue YOU want to discuss. Nobody can argue we are a better society because we eat our young. (Democrats excluded) but they can argue that rape/incest are legit reasons. So concede them, for now at least then come back later with facts and figures to dissuade others on those earlier conceded point.

If you are a zealot then you will not gain favor of the fence riders. You have to convince them with facts and by leading them to your POV gently.
maybe that makes sense.

Natalie said...

Oh GM, you might throw me off your bandwagon for this, throw me softly at least my love, but I stand with Sage. I agree that someone who isn't in one of the few and very specific situations is probably treating an abortion as a get-out-of-jail-free card, which to me is quite atrocious. I would never personally get an abortion. However, I am an avid supporter of being able to do what you want to your own body. This goes for anything. If you wish to drink a bottle of wine a night, go for it. If you want to eat only red meat for the rest of your life, it's your heart. If you want to get a tattoo, have at it. If you want to shoot yourself up with heroine or snort a bunch of coke, as long as you aren't hurting anyone but yourself put whatever you want in your body. And this personal belief spans over the abortion issue just like everything else. You can't tell someone what they can and can't do with their own body. It doesn't matter how they abuse it, it's theirs. Once you tell someone they have no right to their own body it starts looking a lot like Communism to me. That being said, I am avidly against late pregnancy abortions. You have a short window to make your decision, after that you are a murderer. I am sorry GM. I love you! I hope you can still love me too.

Gucci Mama said...

Shelle - Typed out my last comment before I saw your latest. The aftermath of being brutalized is a.) not a time to be making life altering decisions and b.) certainly not a time when women are going to hop on the internet and research a term they've either not heard of (post abortion trauma) or that's been laughed off as irrelevant by the left who uses the excessively rare instance of rape pregnancy as justification for abortion on demand.

Gucci Mama said...

But Natalie, the fallacy in your argument is that a fetus is NOT a part of a woman's body.

Only women can have babies, and their babies can be either male or female. A body cannot be male and female at the same time.

The blood type of a fetus often differs from its mother's. A body cannot have more than one blood type.

A fetus, from the moment of conception, is genetically unique from its mother.

Fetuses have identifiable patterns of sleep and wakefulness. A body cannot be awake and asleep at the same time.

I can do this all day, but the point is, "my body, my choice" is bullshit. Sorry. Just is. I am not any more a part of my mother's body now then when I was growing in her uterus just as I'm not an extension of my house because I happen to live in it.

Gucci Mama said...

Oh, and of course I still love you, Natalie, though I reserve the right to try to get you to see the error of your thinking. ;)

Southern Sage said...

JoJO: no, see you aren't seeing it, I have all night!

So you are willing to force your beliefs on the victim of a brutal rape? You are willing to force her to carry that child to term.

Lets say it is your call. They say JoJo come to the hospital, you walk in and the woman can't see you cause her eyes were beat shut when the 9 guys raped her, before they cut her up with a knife and sodomized her repeatedly while she was tied in the basement for a week. And they say JoJo this loving wife daughter and mother of 5 is bred because of this rape and she would like to abort we have informed and educated her on all options and possible outcomes.

Ok JoJo can she abort? Your call JoJo you gonna make her carry it to term? yes or no.

JoJo said...

Shelle - You are correct I did not read through all the comments and I also had no intentions of offending you, it was just a different opinion.

With that being said, I see how the woman might suffer from the trauma regardless of what choice she makes, however, I just couldn't comprehend the idea behind justifying abortion in this case because some assume the child may be better off not living anyway.

I understand there are many who suffer as a product of rape, but there are many who do not.
There are many who suffer from parents who divorce and there are many who do not as well.
People suffer or don't suffer in life based on a variety of factors that combine nature vs. nurture.

Therefore, without being able to completely foresee into the future, the logic behind that argument does not sit well with me.

Heather said...

If we say abortion is okay because the child "might" suffer then is it also okay to abort babies with disabilities because they will surely suffer?

Gucci Mama said...

Heather - Exactly. It's a slippery slope. One we're already on, for sure. It's sick and sad and dangerous, quite frankly.

JoJo said...

Sage: The only thing I am enforcing is life. The only think I am forbidding is murder.

If a victim of rape suffers emotionally as a result of her pregnancy and not being allowed to appease her emotions with murder then so be it.

The rape victim does not have to believe what I believe. I am not forcing her to believe anything, but she must comply with the law regardless of her beliefs. The same way I have to comply with the ridiculous laws in my current government despite my beliefs because the law is the law.

I would empathize with her suffering and provide emotional care, but I will not agree to give permission to kill an innocent being in the hope of relieving part of the experienced trauma.

Furthermore, if this victim you speak of has fresh wounds from being recently raped then wouldn't she qualify for the morning after pill?

Southern Sage said...

JoJo No she has been bred for a month with the captivity and such.

Yes or no, can she abort the baby caused by the brutal rape?

Southern Sage said...

Nat & GM:

I am against aborting if the act was voluntary. That person took part in the ONLY act that they could become bred from. They chose then. The ONLY time I can see it as morally ok to abort is when the person did NOT consent.

Gucci Mama said...

You've made that very clear, Sage. I don't think anyone thinks you're for abortion in any other circumstance.

JoJo said...

Can the victim of brutal rape kill the child after it is born because her suffering and pain suddenly intensify with the existing proof of her trauma?

Southern Sage said...

JoJo: nope. We are talking about when she first finds out she has been bred because of the brutal rape and beating.

Shes there still poopin in a pan and being fed through a tube. Will JoJo allow her to abort if she so chooses after GM educates her?

Heather said...

Zing! 2 points JoJo. Very good point

Southern Sage said...

GM: ok well some folks are new and surely didn't read all that up there.

Southern Sage said...

Heather: nope, -2 because that baby could be adopted out with no further harm to the mother.

Heather said...

Sage, hun, the point she is trying to make is when does the baby's life come into consideration? Is it only okay to abort if she is still in her first trimester when she makes the decision as a rape victim? What if she is in a coma as a result of the trauma and doesn't open her eyes until the 2nd trimester? What if she doesn't find out until the 3rd trimester? It happens. When is it too late? That is the point we are making. If you can't put a date on when it becomes too late, then perhaps it should not be an option.

I still agree with you on this point. That if a rape or incest victim finds out and is informed in the early stages and gets to make an informed decision then it should be a decision she shares with her doctor.

Tit for Tat said...

Heather and Mama

Actually at a certain stage a baby can live without its mother. Before that stage it is totally dependant on the host. So who are we to tell the host what they can or cant do. Again I reiterate that only the two that started the process have that right(Mother/Father). The rest should just take care of their own business.
The only time that we potentially can have say in the matter is if it is on our dime. Other than that hands off.

Heather said...

A child resulting in rape can be adopted out just as easily and at least the mother knows that though something horrible has happened, it doesn't all have to be horrible.

JoJo said...

Well see that's just hypocritical Sage.

The woman is not entitled to murder the baby once it's born, but has every right to destroy it while she's pregnant.

How can you put her suffering on a time frame?

The answer is you can't. The woman is going to suffer regardless and hopefully she will have strong coping capabilities to find her peace. Trying to ameliorate the situation with murder is not going to change what happened to her.

Allowing her to abort a viable fetus while she is pregnant, but not allowing her to murder the neonate despite the suffering it causes her, is hypocritical.

What's the difference?

Southern Sage said...

I find myself wondering how the convo would go.......

Hi my name is JoJo, I am your government health insurance advocate, and I know you had a hard time as of late with the beating repeated rape and sodomizing but I came by today to tell you you are bred and one of the 9 guys that held you captive for and brutalized you is the donor it seems. anyway, you can come by my office when you can again walk in a couple months and we can pick out some names.

Abort? No you can't do that! You must have this child!
Why??
Well because I said to! I am the morality police and we have found that even though you didnt want this child we demand you keep it growing in your tummy and in 8 months birth this child well because you haven't already been thru enough and you shouldn't be able to make this decision, we should, we are Obamacare and we say what you can and can't do.

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