I think it is much to easy. Now I have no clue what it takes to get divorced but if it is a coin toss on your wedding day as to weather or not you will be getting divorced then it must be pretty damn easy. I think people should stay married if it is at all possible. YOU made a commitment. What does it say of a society when 50% of its of age population doesn't have a good word? 50% you can't rust to do what they said they would do? See my dad told me way back when I was young "Son you only come into the world with two things your name and your word, you need to be damn sure you leave it with both of them being good." Now he used "word" to mean your reputation of being a good person, your word being your bond, saying what you mean and meaning what you say.
Evidently everyone wasn't raised by my dad because evidently 1/2 of the folks word ain't good. Now I am sure that everyone has a good reason to get divorced. Yeah, I'm positive. The root cause is the one thing I harp on repeatedly, PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY. People don't care anymore, they don't have to be responsible for their actions so they aren't. They just do whatever feels good now. They strive for personal gratification with no long term thoughts. They don't give a damn what it does to their kids, who of course are much better off with a loving father and mother (or 2 same sex people), the same two people consistently for their whole life, than they are splitting time with parents. What does that teach your kids? Well kid if it does go just exactly like you want it then F it, just quit. What kind of parenting is that? Quitters. Thats the easy way out. When the going gets tough, the quitters get divorced.
Marriage is tough, damn tough. If you are gong to hop off the first time their is turbulence then it prolly ain't for you. You should get a government job and vote Democrat.
Put you big girl panties on people and suck it up. You decided to marry that person, I'm sure after months and years of studying the pro's and con's of being married till death to that person, having long long talks and recording for the future the promises YOU made to that person and they made to you so you should be sure by the time you walk the aisle. People seldom change, very seldom. Thats who you chose to marry. Everyone has hard times, some win the others quit. There are no losers just quitters.
Sage is out. (NSFW)
"Some say that marriage is an institution. The last time I looked up the definition of an institution was, it is hardly something that I would consider what a marriage should be like. As defined by the dictionary – an institution is “an organization, establishment, foundation, society, or the like, devoted to the promotion of a particular cause or program, esp. one of a public, educational, or charitable character” the other definition: “is a public or private place for the care or confinement of inmates, esp. mental patients or other disabled or handicapped persons.”
Scary if that is what a marriage should be like. Not exactly how I would like my marriage to be. I define marriage as ongoing efforts of two people to build and establish a happy, satisfying and sustainable relationship. Some people succeed in building this relationship and some do not. Once two people no longer wish to put in the effort and the relationship is no longer happy then it is time to go.
I am not by any means advocating an easy way out, that should there be a disagreement or a crisis then just bail. What I am referring to is that there seems to be a lot of bickering over nothing; you seem to be withdrawing from each other and when the other individual is communicating their thoughts and feelings, you are rolling your eyes disrespectfully. In addition, I am also talking about, you no longer fight fair, you no longer have fun together, you have nothing nice to say to each other, you do not talk about your individual problems to each other, you no longer trust each other and need to put a gps to track each other’s ass.
The words “I do” does not necessarily mean a life sentence for two people. Granted somewhere along the line, they happen to have children and find themselves in an unhappy marriage, the children should not have to live a miserable existence wherein they witness their parents hurl insults at each other and argue because their parents uttered the words “till death do us part”.
Children also live what they learn. Children fair better experiencing and witnessing their parents separate and eventually try and establish some form of amicable relationship rather than being in a consistently volatile environment. Children who grow up in a household where there are consistent arguments and tension tend to not do very well managing their own lives.
There are usually questions one can ask oneself whether or not one should stay or not stay in an unhappy relationship and some of these are.
- Are the two of you fussing with one another over trivial matters?
- Does just about everything about your spouse irritate you?
- Has your spouse physically or emotionally abused you? Are you afraid of your spouse?
- Do you believe that your love, patience and hope have just all run out?\
- Can you communicate about anything or do you always end up in a disagreement? When you fight, do you fight fair? Do either of you bring up past hurts?
- When was the last time you had fun together? When was the last time you felt sexually attracted to each other? Do you still make love?
- Do the same problems keep resurfacing again and again? Have you tried counseling? Can you accept that your personal unhappiness is your own responsibility?
- Does your spouse constantly put you down, attack your self-esteem, and/or criticize you? Do you have any respect for your spouse? Does your spouse respect you?
- Are you willing to co-parent the rearing of your children with your ex-spouse?
- Have your goals and values outgrown each other.
- Can you compromise on important issues?
- Has your spouse been unfaithful, in your terms?
- Do the same problems keep resurfacing again and again?
If you answered Yes and had to qualify the answer with a but, then it is time to hit the road jack or jill and get a government job and vote democrats….
WannabeVirginia out... (WannabeViginia is a Guest Contributor who I asked to write her opinion because of a personal experience of hers. Thanks WV!)
** One note, of course nobody should be in an physically abusive situation, I try not to state the obvious in my posts but people will call me out sometimes if I don't. SS
46 comments:
Happiness is such a trivial concept. We say things like "I'm not happy!" and yet often have no clue that what we really mean is we lack creativity or sticktuitiveness. We are seldom truly happy . . .
sticktuitiveness...........
Thats what I'm talkin about!
How ironic that I literally just posted today (after being off blogworld for some time now) around the challenges of being a step mom. And Southern Sage - you have my blood BOILING!!
Yes, people are lazy and want the easy way out. Yes, I believe poeple enter marriages to the wrong people, at the wrong time for the absolute wrong reasons, mostly because they settle and "it's past due time... or I need to have kids"... I get it, I do.
But at the same time, there is so much wrong with our self awareness, why we enter relationships, why we are attracted to certain people, and for those willing to actually put the work in and learn about why we individually make those decisions to ensure a bad choice is not repeated, then I say GET OUT.
Both my husband and I have treaded the horrible life of divorce. We deal with it every single day as we both have children form those marriages that remain our number one priority. Both of our ex spouses went outside our marriages. Obviously things were broken and issues were evident. But there is also a human beings right to have pride and live with self spirit.
Obviously these posts are the extremes of the spectrum, and it can't be captured so simply. But for anyone, male or female, where you are in a marriage and have lost your spirit... if you can honestly say you have tried everything possible to heal or repair or at least work on the relationship to no avail, then get out and be proud of your choice. Role model to your children what a loving and respectful adult relationship SHOULD look like. Making the choice to leave my marriage after 4 years of unsuccessful counseling with 4 different therapists seperately and jointly was the hardest yet most proud decision in my life.
I feel better, thank you.
Well said Susan :)
I think it's sad that people get divorced over petty things.
But I got divorced because my husband was unfaithful. To me that is NOT petty, but maybe to someone else they could look past it?? I don't know.
Because I've been through it myself, I make it a point not to be judgemental of anyone that is going through divorce.
Susan:
Yes they are showing extremes but wouldn't kids be better taught to tough it out? To own their decisions? There is something wrong with all that you state and the kids suffer.
I can't speak to every relationship but when 1/2 of all marriages end in divorce that can't be a good thing. Sounds like most people just make decisions that benefit them and not their kids. Pride would be better found in making the best for the kids out of a bad situation that people put themselves in. How can one have pride when they quit?
It seems terrible to me for someone to get married and breed then quit and chalk it up as a learning situation. It would seem to me that showing kids what it should look like would be better done without quitting.
I think we quit way too easily and quickly.
I think it is a fundamental flaw that is tearing the world apart. Just do what we want when we want whit little or no thoughts of how it will affect those that need us.
That being said it sounds like you tried everything you could and like I said, everyone can justify their actions.
Just found your site through In the Real World... I love finding new people blogging who have been through divorce and getting on with life! Congrats on your move, and what a fun, adorable picture!
Shell: Anyone who knows me knows I don't judge (not that you accused me of doing so). Doesn't it seem though that the divorce rate is way way to high?
I wonder how many of us who were raised with 2 parents, the same two the whole time would be surprised to know that one or the other or both had cheated and they stuck it out to do what was best for us (the kids) even though it hurt them deeply to do so?
I wonder how many of us are better off today because of it.
WBV: :-)~
While I agree that divorce is more prevalent in modern society than it ought to be, for the most part I think I agree with WBV: there are reasons for a divorce, and in many instances the family as a whole (spouses and children) are better served than remaining in poor circumstances.
OOps... sorry about above comment - it was supposed to go to ShellSpann!
My apologies.
And SS, this is just way to much of a sensitive subject for people on different ends of the spectrum to agree on. I totally respect your position, but of course until you've lived through certain circumstances, it's hard to judge anyone elses decisions. Every situation is obviously different. Good luck to everyone, whether you stay or go.
My parents are still married after 40+ years together, and have been unhappy personally for years. And all five children in the house totally knew it to the point of ensuring my mom (and dad in later years) that if they divorced we would support them both. My mom has always stated she stayed for the kids. We aren't better off. I repeated her mistake, by marrying someone like my Father, who I love immensely but has traits that aren't what I need in a life partner. It's compfortable and familiar to all of us which is why we are attracted to someone initially, yet it is what we later resent in a partner. So I am the victim of parents staying in a failing marriage "for the sake of the kids" and I refuse to continue the cycle and be a negative role model for my kids to learn from.
And as much of a failed partner my ex husband made, I will always portray him in the eyes of my children as "the dad who loves them with all his heart".
That is good about telling your kids that.
Do you, hell does anyone, think that on average and fundamentally it is worse to be raised by your birth parents. Or is it better to be raised willy nilly by various spouses? What if the second choice doesn't pan out? Or the third? or the 11th?
I feel certain that there are zero studies that show kids are better off not being raised by other than their birth parents, together.
I'm sure you would support your folks now, would you have when you were 6? 8? 11?
In as much as I like to debate issues I don't like to debate individual issues because they vary so greatly.
The question is simple and plain and only has one answer.
Since I put my kids first, even before myself I have to ask, yes or no....... Are kids better off with the birth parents raising them together.
yes or no?
Dang it ends with such an easy question.
Again we have to talk in general and not individual situations.
Sci Fi
I agree in a very small % of situations. But for the sake of discussion across the board in general that surely isn't the case
I am sorry but I couldn't even get through the third paragraph of what she said. You lost me at: "I define marriage as ongoing efforts of two people to build and establish a happy, satisfying and sustainable relationship." That is dating. Dating is figuring out if you can be with this person for the rest of your life. Take as long as you need to figure this out. There is no time limit on dating. When you know everything about the person you are dating and you still want to be with them and they know everything about you and still want to be with you, then get married. There may still be surprises down the road. It will still be difficult. But I am totally with Sage, don't give up, you made a commitment. Divorce shouldn't be an option unless there are extreme circumstances.
I agree totally that our society is suffering from the break up of the family.
Divorce is used to often as a threat in a marriage. It is used as a crutch that when the going gets tough then I best be going.
Vows and promises become meaningless.
I know more of couples that get out for selfish reasons then couples who have been cheated on or worse abused.
And I had parents that fought a lot but looking back I remember mor good times then bad and their relationship has helped me in knowing that it is okay to argue but that things can and should be worked through. That a fight and unhappy days or weeks is not means for a Divorce.
But...
I also know and believe that when one or the other partner is not helping in making the marriage work then it is hard on the spirit and the soul and in extreme cases in abuse and neglect and cheating one shouldn't have to endure, they should then go their separate ways and through the experience get stronger as a person so as not to fall into a similar pattern or choose a similar partner.
To many use Divorce as a way to escape instead of using as a last resort. To me anyways.
And like Susan said...there is so much involved and it's not as simple as all that or cut and dry.
But as my opinion and in general I don't think Divorce is okay just because you may be unhappy and don't want to work through the hard times.
A real touchy subject..good job on both of you SS and WV.
"I define marriage as ongoing efforts of two people to build and establish a happy, satisfying and sustainable relationship. Some people succeed in building this relationship and some do not. Once two people no longer wish to put in the effort and the relationship is no longer happy then it is time to go."
Pardon for me saying this, but when is marriage just about happiness? I don't recall the marriage vows saying a couple is staying married only until they the happiness runs out. If I remember correctly, it said "for better or worse.....". I don't think that meant, at the first sight of trouble or difficulty, we bail. I agree with Sage that there are far too many divorces these days. Heck, there are even people getting married these days for totally the wrong reason and feel it's ok since they have the option to get a divorce later.
WV..on your questions..all of those can be worked on but on number 3..I drew a line there. A person should never in anyway be abused by a spouse, physically or emotionally and should never be afraid of a spouse. I can work through all those issues in your questions except for #3.
What an interesting concept - the two views together, and really good posts by Sage and Virginia, with thought and care.
I remember this problem being discussed many years ago, and one possible solution put forward was that where there are children, the couple should make every effort to stay together and get on.
But without children the marriage should be a seven year contract at the end of which it was dissolved and had to be renewed. There was to be no divorce. Some people were really keen on this. I liked it.
He Said -
"the breakdown of the family"
It is the same in Britain, and as far as I know, right across the Western world. What will be the long term social implications I wonder?
I remember my wife and I went through a bad patch, we were both unhappy, but we talked about what was causing it, I had a poor job, and she was lonely away from her family and close friends, and not near any shops. So we tackled the root cause. We moved back to our home area and I became a 'Yuppie' (young and upwardly mobile) living away from home when necessary until I obtained a really good position near home.
The collapse of the Church of England and Christian principles have resulted in the lost of the Christian institutions, including marriage, and the political rulers have undermined the Christian marriage (and Christian morality) for over 50 years.
The modern marriage is all too often not worth the paper the certificate is written on.
But the trouble is there is not an effective social system to replace it, and with all it’s faults, it did more or less work, and surely unhappy periods have to be expected, and worked through in any part of life.
Plus, most people have totally unrealistic expectations of marriage, and their spouse, and their social skills are such that they cannot relate to people in a stable long term relationships at all.
I have to say I tend to agree with Sage. Although I think Shell-BlokThoughts expressed my thoughts on the subject very well. That every case is not cut and dry. But I think divorce should be a last resort.
I love being able to read both sides!
You had me at over reaching, socialist, Democrats...I must agree with the "He Said"!!
~WM
My parents were doing the stick it our for the kids. But they argued constantly. We all kept telling them to get divorced. Get it over with! They finally did.
I have a good friend she is in a terrible marriage, husband has cheated a few times, he no longer works. I tell her to throw him out. lol She says they are married forever so this is her lot in life. whatever.
We have a family member that just filed for a divorce a couple weeks ago - We are so happy! He has been married for 25 yrs to a WITCH! He told my husband they have not had sex for over 6 years. SHe has never held his hand in public. NEVER went to the store to go get medicine if he has been sick. He does everything work, all the cooking, cleaning, laundry. She has been such a pain for all these years. This man has wasted 25 yrs to long to get rid of her. They have two kids. Youngest is 15. I am afraid he will cave and stay with her, she is putting the pressure on him.
Adults need to be happy as well. I just can't see being miserable and wasting my life away with an idiot. Both of the above marriages are great examples of great people who deserve to be happy and be with someone else.
Great post!
Why would anyone CHOOSE to stay in an unhappy ANYTHING? An unhappy marraige breeds children who never get to see what a healthy relationship is about. I don't see anything positive that comes from CHOOSING to stay in unhappiness.
Why would anyone CHOOSE to stay in an unhappy ANYTHING? An unhappy marraige breeds children who never get to see what a healthy relationship is about. I don't see anything positive that comes from CHOOSING to stay in unhappiness.
Meagan: I agree 100%
I courted the bride for 10 years, never lived with her at all, just courted then were married a couple years before breeding her. Not always candy and nuts but I did the homework before being all in.
Shelle: sure it isn't cut and dried. In this venue it must be general tho.
Nobody should be forced to endure the extreme.
Anjeny:
Amen.
Perfectly stated.
David: very correct on the loss of Christian principles, or any moral religious principles. Also the expectations have a lot to do with it. To much on TV with folks all happy and shit.
AL: ty. true @ Shelle too.
Duck: Good I think this is a good thing!
Whoa. Tough topic with a lot of great comments all around. I agree with both Cheek & Anjeny in regards to "happiness". What we perceive as happiness or fulfillment has to come from within first. The best relationships contribute to overall well-being, but another person cannot "make" you happy.
I do think that the low commitment rate (whether divorce or break-ups of common-law relationships) does have negative implications to society, particularly to the children in it. Most often selfishness and pride are at the root of it. Studies show that divorce in itself does not necessarily result in more "happiness". In fact, it can sometimes compound some problems.
However, I do think that there are extreme circumstances where divorce may be warranted. At that point, it is an extremely personal situation and generalities don't necessarily apply. That said, I don't think that it is a step that should be taken lightly.
As Anjeny pointed out, most things can be worked through, as long as both parties put forth the effort to do it together. From my personal experience (10 yrs ago in the rearview mirror), it is possible to work through major problems and come out of it with a stronger, more committed and more fulfilling relationship. It's not easy, but for us it was well worth it. The biggest hurdle is making the conscious choice and effort to do it.
And last, but not least.....
As to Sage's Yes/No question about whether we are better off with birth parents raising their offspring together, I would have to say "it depends on the parents and the circumstances." Yes, I think that people should take care not to create offspring together if they don't intend to raise them together. Generally speaking, yes, I think it is best for kids to be raised by both of their parents. However, there are glaring exceptions where that is not in the best interest of the child. Again, I think a lot of it goes back to selfishness and lack of responsibility or accountability on the part of one or both parents.
Hope I didn't offend anyone with my comments and opinions as none was intended.
Missty surely she didn't turn that way overnight though. Also I think that 15 year olds can see the light. I mean @ 1-12 or so I think it would be very bad for the kids to have a convince divorce.
Working Mommy: you need to hit my political posts @ Independent thinkers or Sageville. You seem to be a thinker if you agreed with that!
Nancy said.....
Why would anyone CHOOSE to stay in an unhappy ANYTHING?
I say-Because they chose to be there, they made a conscious decision to marry that person and gave their word. (I don't care if they don't have kids)
nanacy says:
An unhappy marraige breeds children who never get to see what a healthy relationship is about.
I say-People in unhappy marriages ought not breed. Thee is only one way to have kids, I'd suggest not having sex with people you are unhappy with and if you just can't help yourself then take steps to not breed.
Girl On the Mountain: Great comment. I agree with you.
Sage, man, you have it right...kind of. Of course nobody can put a blanket statement about marriage and have it apply to everyone. Some people shouldn't be married. But some people shouldn't have gotten married.
Society puts a lot of pressure on couples to get married. I was almost married to the wrong woman. It would have been a disaster. Thankfully we both came to our senses mid planning and bailed.
Where I agree with Sage is that many good couples bail when things get hard. Everything is hard. Getting through it makes you stronger.
Here is some lovely Scottish poetry to sum up my view -
So when you're young, you love all women
for hours and hours, between sheets of linen
So then you married, a real live witch
who turns out, to be a bit of a bitch
So chuck her out, into a wet ditch
and go all out, to make yourself rich
So that's what I'd do, if it happen to me
I'm going off line now, to have a cup of tea.
Good huh?
Virginia - you'll never be able to write like me : )~
David Edward (formerly David Edward TC)
i've been married 31yrs. there's been good times and bad times. marriage is hard work. rewards are many. i think some people think marriage is going to all wine and roses no sour grapes or thorns. extreme situations like abuse etc. then get out. but makes me think you didnt choose wisely. i've got a friend who's been married 4times. she picks broken butterflies thinking she going to be able to fix them. i told her not to marry the fourth one. my husband is my best friend and i look forward to growing old with him. he still makes me laugh after 31yrs together. enjoyed the he said; she said.
Awesome comments from different directions and looks like Sage has been busy!
ShellSpann: Absolutely, if an individual cannot carry on in a marriage after the other has been unfaithful then it is time to leave. The aftermath of an affair is not good.
Sage: How can anyone have pride when they allow themselves to be imprisoned in an unhappy marriage. My question then is where is the individuals self worth? Staying in an unhappy marriage for the sake of the children sounds like "martyrdom" to me :)~
Statistics on divorce rates are skewed.
The only fundamental lesson that children learn watching their parents stick it out in a bad marriage is how to relate badly to other people and not have boundaries on what is tolerable and intolerable.
SciFi Dad: Well said.
Susan: "My mom has always stated she stayed for the kids. We aren't better off" Your comment after this statement is precisely my point.
Sage: "What if the second choice doesn't pan out? Or the third? or the 11th?" That is the beauty of going into another relationship after a divorce is that one is wiser and certainly can recognize the red flags that pop up in another relationship.
"Are kids better off with the birth parents raising them together?"
No. not if the parents are unhappy with each other, then that unhappinnes filters through in their parenting.
Meagan: I didn't know that dating will tell you everything about an individual. I thought that an individual continually grows and evolves as they progress through a relationship. My bad!
Shelle- Precisely, a relationship/marriage is a two way street. It is not sustainable when the other is constantly giving and the other taking - it has to both givers and takers.
Anjeny: I thought I made it clear that it is not about bailing at the first sign of trouble, I am referring to something much greater than arbitrary and trivial things that occur in a marriage.
David: Lol. You might be referring to the a driver's license renewal. Nonetheless, where is your blog?
Missty & Nancy. Well said! Individuals deserve to be happy!
Sage: "Because they chose to be there, they made a conscious decision to marry that person and gave their word"
No one knows what the marriage is going to be like - there maybe an idea of what it would be like and that can certainly change a few years down the road.
Nancy: "An unhappy marraige breeds children who never get to see what a healthy relationship is about"
That right there is a million dollar statement. I couldn't have said it better.
David: You are a rockin' writer!!! Can't wait to read your writing (hehe)
I am in such a rush and wish I could read all of these comments thoroughly... I am going to admit right now that I skimmed the comments after reading the post carefully.
I have to agree with Southern Sage on all counts even the ones I skimmed in the comments. There are so many different scenarios that warrant throwing in the towel for your own emotional and physical well being.
The point I want to make is if we teach our children to take their time and get to know their spouses and how to love and understand a person unconditionally, I think this would eliminate a large part of our divorce rate.
So many people take marriage lightly and jump in too early before really getting to know their ins and outs and what real deep love is all about. The kind of love that doesn't get pissed every time the other half spouts off without thinking or forgets to take the trash out.
Its about teaching our children patience and forgiveness and how to know what a good marriage (or relationship) looks like so that they will know when the right one comes along.
This theory would only work if everyone did it though because half of a healthy relationship won't work... it has to be 2 sided. When it is out of balance is when it begins to fail.
I am not a proponent of being a doormat for an asshole spouse. I am about teaching our children early and helping them prevent a bad relationship to start with.
So many of my friends either got married to escape bad homelife (fighting parents) or because they thought they weren't complete without a spouse right out of college or highschool for that matter.
Teach our kids self worth and how to be independent and they will be the best spouse anyone could ever want.
Let's just pray our kids find someone like that kind of match for themselves so they can avoid the heartache for their sake and the sake of their kids.
I said a naughty word and I want to apologize. I can't edit without retyping so please ignore and move on..
I am all for commitment --parents and in laws both happily married for 50 plus years. Myself for 25 plus years. I indeed hope that for my children. However, there are times for people when to stay together is not the best and it is so much more than just being committed. Perhaps, then I lean towards she said -- Our daughter was in a relationship where he became abusive -- I was thrilled that she left and is now happily married.
DGB: Thanks!
Jam: Hell if shes been married 3 times I'm thinking its her!
Chief!!!!!! Yo can't say that! Sheeesh
Naughty word typer!
Becky: I don't think anyone is for staying through abuse. I surely am not.
Chief: No worries about dirty word, we are all adults... I hope.
Sage: I swear you were taking pay offs :)~ where is my cut? lol
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