Friday, June 12, 2009

Just What Are We Making Here

To keep this post simple, I'll start with a couple things.

First of all, my wife wants to have a GABILLION kids.  I, on the other hand, I'm pretty OK with our current number, which is two.

So, every time Mrs. Stinkoff and I get a little frisky, well I go searching for a condom.  Mrs.  Stinkoff gets dejected at this, I'm about 199% sure she's hoping I will forgo the condom in the heat of the moment.  And from the point on, well let's just say the friskiness just ain't so frisky.  She's dejected because we're not making a baby, and I'm dejected because we're not getting as freaky as we should be at this point.  In other words,  the mood is pretty much gone.  Either way, it's a lose-lose.  She's wanting to make a baby, and I'm wanting to make sweet, sweet nookie, and neither one of us are getting what we want.

We've talked about it (many times), and we've come to the conclusion that we'll NEVER AGREE on this.  I've told her, "Maybe one more kid, but only when we are more financially secure," which is not even close to a reality right now.  Her, on the other hand, she wants them now, and lots of them.  

Any words of wisdom from you guys and gals out there? 

Cameron

33 comments:

Blogging Mama Andrea said...

This is a very tricky subject because there's a lot more at stake than sex. I can see both points and here's the only advice I can give.

If she doesn't seem to understand (and I'm talking in her heart, I am sure she's probably very smart) then maybe you could sit down and pull out the finances and look at it together. That way the heart can see what the head already knows, that right now it isn't a good idea to have a baby. But you have to help her out too and see her side. Explain your stance on a new baby; that yes in the future but you can't commit right now because you don't want to upset the already shaky financial frame of your family (or whatever). Most important give a date to re-evaluate the situation, six months or a year. That way she has a specific date to say okay he didn't say no and we get to talk about it again.

That might help to keep the bedroom a bit more lively for everyone. She may always be slightly disappointed, the craving for a baby can make a a person fairly insane, but I think if you can discuss it from these angles it may help.

Cookie Crums said...

I have no advice but am intersted in seeing what others have to say.

My husband and I are going through the same thing....only I'm the one on birth control so no condoms involved. I'm wanting #2 NOW, and he's "not ready for another baby yet." I get frustrated at times b/c it seems like his mind is set and that annoys me b/c I'm like why do YOU get to be the final decision. It is a hard topic though when each person wants something different. I had a friend say, "You're the one taking the pill...just stop." I wouldn't do that to my husband though b/c we're in this together and I want him to want a child. And luckily he does, just not on my time table. [grin]

I have to say being on the pill makes things more spontaneous b/c you don't have to worry about a condom. BUT I know each couple has their reasons for the method they choose...I'm just saying. I hope you get some good advice so maybe in turn I will too.

BeautifulWreck said...

I think the excuse of wanting to be more financially secure to either have kids or have more kids is lame. I am sure I will be flamed for this pov but I personally believe you afford what you want to afford and kids can be as expensive or as inexpensive as you want them to be. How much are your current expenses going to really increase having another child? If your spouse is already a SAHM, probably very little for the first few years if you have decent health insurance. There is also no time like the present. The excuse is just to put off your wife until what? she decides you are right, you are too old, or you find a better excuse. Also telling her maybe gets her hopes up and is in a way leading her on. You either do or you don't. Stop being wishy washy.

And if you are opposed to having more kids because you just do not want the responsibility of any more children and think two is all you can handle, than you most likely have some big problems in your relationship to contend with. I have several friends who have spouses that decided they did not want children or do not want anymore children and they are very resentful. There is a wedge in their relationship and if you think you are not getting what you want right now, add some resentment, bitterness and depression into the mix and sex may be a distant memory for you. If that is how you feel tho, I suggest some marriage counseling to resolve this issue and find out if this is a deal breaker in the relationship (and for some women and even men, it will be).

I could say a lot more, but I am not sure how much my flame retardant suit can take.

Blogging Mama Andrea said...

Beautiful Wreck, if I could please comment to your comment. While you may make a valid point in some cases, if you read a bit closer Cameron is not saying he is opposed to having more children.

There is such a thing as being responsible when it comes to having children and I believe that is his point. Should he go on welfare just to have another child? Despite the claims, having two of them myself, kids are not inexpensive.

Let's please remember to be respectful. That's all I ask.

Andrea- Venus Co-owner

Cameron said...

Beautiful Wreck, I respect your opinion, that's Ok. But you don't truly have a sense of our finances, our insurance, our employment. So I'll fill you in briefly.

No, my wife is not a SAHM. She was for a couple years, then we couldn't do it anymore, financially. So she works a daycare, and the kids go to the same daycare.

We do have insurance, although I certainly wouldn't classify it as good. The birth of our second child cost us a couple grand, out of pocket. A regular old dr visit costs us about $70 out of pocket, that's after the deductible is met. It's not good insurance.

You, of all people should know how much children cost, but to clarify, on average, $10,000 per year. That's what all the statistics say.

I have agreed to another child, when our finances are better. I look at it this way, we're struggling now, if we add another child, we'll be bankrupt after the doctor bills come in. The point of my post, and I think Andrea hit the nail on the head pretty good, is to get my wife to see that we cannot afford it, not right now. When things get better, sure....ONE more. Which is also a hangup for my wife, she wants several more. I am Ok with one, not several. That's a big hangup as well.

I hope that clarifies a couple things.

T said...

I think I can see all points of view here (yes, even Beautiful Wreck's) because we've "been there, done that" a couple times now...

I wanted another, M.O.T.H. was willing to wait for a bit... it put a crimp in the bedroom situation - yes, because birth control issues are a pain.

We actually ended up having more (later than I'd hoped, sooner than he'd hoped) before we were "financially secure" - but the truth is - unless you have a magic threshold of security (i.e. - graduation /landing a job/paying off the car) looming soon, a nebulous idea of "when we're better off" might not happen... ever.

I'm not advocating having children that you CANNOT provide for or relying on welfare - I'm just suggesting having a frank discussion together where you have a definitive point in time that you can agree on... and in the meantime... yeah - birth control takes the fun out of it - sorry!

T said...

see - while I wax philosophical Cam comes back and makes it all useless :)

Did I mention that hub and I are both glad now that we struggled so much then - because now the kids are all old enough to enjoy outings AND close enough in age to hang out together...

When kids #1-3 were born I was also a daycare worker... and had to quit after #3 because the employee perks only worked for 1 & 2... it was a DANGED good thing this coincided with Hub finishing his internship!

Timing can be everything!

Anonymous said...

I think there true underlying problem and you both know it is that she wants 'several' and you only want 'one'. The financial situation is in my opinion only a 'on the surface' problem.
Sounds to me like a stale mate.

Cameron said...

T - sorry ;) You make good points throughout, though.

Anon - you could be right, I don't know.

Shelle-BlokThoughts said...

Okay first of all... as the OTHER co-creator of this site... :)

I don't think she was trying to be disrespectful... although it is always good to be reminded with touchy subject like this!

I see Beautiful Wrecks point of view. I hope Cameron, and I don't think he did, took it offensively. He wrote the post, I believe, to hear people's honest opinion, and Beautiful Wreck had a GREAT, totally blunt and honest point. From the info she was given.

When I first read Cameron's post I too thought... LAME when are you REALLY ever financially secure??? So I wasn't buying that either. If I waited to have kids or any kid until we were financially secure we would never have kids!

But now reading more of what Cameron is saying... I get it. I understand that reasoning as I believe your wife does.

But that doesn't mean she can help the DESIRE to have kids. Thinking logically like that for a woman just isn't how we roll. In her mind heart and body she WANTS a child. Wanting and desiring a child doesn't really go away, it may fade for moments because you get caught up in life and get busy, but it's always there. Anytime you hear a cry from a child, anytime you watch a movie with a child, anytime you go ANYWHERE and you see the sweet chub of a baby or hear an innocent pure laugh from a child... you are REMINDED of how much you want that child

So something like this CAN be a deal breaker. If I were your wife Cameron... being honest, I would probably hold back on sex from you also, it's the ONLY way we can either get you to understand our point of view or get our way. Just being honest here, that is how it is with me and my husband.

Seeing how sex for a woman is based on our emotions or how we feel... her desire probably isn't there if she is thinking about how she can't have a baby everytime you reach for that condom, probably a little like she has failed to get you worked up enough that you forget the condom,which is probably her goal. It will probably continue to be a problem until you guys come to a compromise...you see what I mean?

Cameron... this is rough. There really isn't an OKAY answer, I don't know WHERE you would meet in the middle with this one.

I also see your point of view Cam. I am like you and am okay with not having any more kids or only ONE more if we decide to have any more. Kids are HARD work, time consuming, frustrating...(of course there is the good part also) ESPECIALLY that first few months of their LIFE. SOOOOO tiring.

But it's also hard not having money... as a guy it would be pressure to want to give them ALL you want and not being able to...

That IS the main reason why my husband says he doesn't want anymore children, at least right now, because he feels less of a man if he can't provide and give the quality of life for his family that he wants them to have or feels they deserve.

My suggestion would be like Andrea said and give her a time table on when you are open to discuss it again. Or just give it to her straight and say you just DON'T want to have any more children. The Maybe ONE more kid keeps her hopes up and so in that respect she will keep asking until she gets what she wants or sees that its doing her no good.

And believe me when I say, for some women convincing us there is NO more hope can be quite difficult! :)

Good Luck Cameron! Great post... and GREAT discussion!

Cameron said...

"Thinking logically like that for a woman just isn't how we roll." --- can I quote you on that Shelle? :)

jk....Good answers all around guys...unfortunately I don't know if there is an answer. Time will probably tell.

Shelle-BlokThoughts said...

Cameron--YES you can quote me on that... cause you are my BBFF! or because it's true. Whichever!

Susan said...

Seriously, if it's driving a wedge, you guys should seek therapy. I bet a bunch of stuff comes out that are little things, and with that the baby stuff will resolve itself.

I'm so pro-therapy. If you guys find the right person. Interview. Check them out. It's WORTH the marriage and money invested.

I also think we need to allow people to speak on the board in a way they are willing to come back. I mean, if we're posting topics where people are asking advice on such sensitive, personal subjects, we need to agree that comments can drive just as much passion no matter what opinion they may be!

Good luck Cameron. We have four kids, combined as a blended family. After a year of dating and managing four kids together now, my husband and I RAN to the urologist's office for a vasectomy. I mean, come on. How many men are willint to run!

Cameron said...

Susan - therapy is an option. Ideally, and as a guy, I would like to avoid that option, but if our marriage should deteriorate, of course I would try anything.

I hope I'm not painting my marriage as horrible or anything, because it most certainly is not. It's just this one issue that we can't seem to get around, and it affects us both in and out of the bedroom. It's not a nagging, all day thing (for me anyway), it's just, as described before, a stalemate.

Mr. Anonymous said...

Cameron,
I can totally empathize(sp)with you on this issue. This has been an extremely rough road for us in our marriage. I know the stress, heartache and sorrow it brings. I think due to our religious beliefs it only compounded the problem for us.

Religiously speaking, God wants us to be happy and fulfilled in our marriages. He wants us to be successful in our relationships. He wants us to be UNIFIED. He wants us to be one, as He, the Savior, and the Holy Ghost which are three, are one in unity. I believe God wants us to be more united as husband and wife, then he would want us to procreate and replenish the earth. Don't get me wrong, He does want us to bring kids into this world, probably as much as we can. I think He would rather have us united with two kids, then discorded with three.

As a man, I understand the feelings of needing to be able to provide for our families. It is very difficult and conflicting for us, in the sense we have a solemn responsibility to be able to keep a roof over their heads and food on the table. Yet at the same time we want to please our wife and make her happy. We want her to feel like she is the QUEEN. The internal conflict comes with wanted to please the wife, but doing so in this issue might jeopardize our ability for shelter, food and clothing. Since men are generally logical in there reasoning, they will side with the pratical and not put their family in financial jeopardy.

To withhold love or sex because your spouse does not see it the way you do, is a form of punishment and is wrong. It has been mentioned of resentment and bitterness, how much resentment or bitterness do you think would come in if a spouse feels forced into doing something they didn't want, in this case its having more children right now. We are to love one another always, not just so we can get it our way, or withhold our love because you don't agree with me. The Savior said on the sermon on the mount "But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; that ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and the unjust. For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye?" The greatest lesson we can learn, is to love our spouse even when they are acting unlovable. If we only show our love to our spouse when they are being agreeable or showing their love to us, what reward have we? We must love them unconditionally at all times. Let me put in a disclaimer here, if a spouse is violating one of the 3 A's, Abuse, Affairs or Addictions then it is prudent for us to seek out safety, sometimes that means ending the marriage.

I whole heartedly agree with Susan, that if this issue is driving a wedge inbetween you too, then seek out a good marriage counselor. Despite the cost, it is cheaper than divorce. A good marriage counselor can help you both come to an understanding where you will be united.

I am just saying,

Mr Anonymous

Shelle-BlokThoughts said...

Mr. Anonymous... I'm so glad someone is more long winded then me! I guess I forgot to explain that keeping sex from ur spouse is a sub conscious choice... Its made because I know its the only thing relateable to him where he might understand my frustration. Having said that... I don't do that any longer... Read a great book, can't remember the name right now, that explained where I understand how important sex is for a guy... And that I will be better off giving it up more for he seems to be more open to discussing and just open minded over all! :)

Cameron... I don't think anybody is thinking that about ur marriage we all have that kinda stalemate issue... Believe me! Thank u for being open enough to allow us an opinion! therapy doesn't mean necessarily that ur marriage is on the rocks... Sometimes it nice just to have some where to discuss the issue openly with a third party who is neutr and may have something to say that helps!

I'm for hire... Hehe...

Seriously Cameron great post!

My thumbs hurt I am typing this on my Blackberry!

Mr. Anonymous said...

Shelle,

I understand where you are coming from when you say withholding sex is a subconscious action to having hurt feelings. It's when its taken from a subconcious action to a conscious one, that I am talking about. In the heat of the moment, when feelings have been hurt, not many people are in the mood for a romp in the sac. Its when we then consciously take it and choose to withhold our love, sex or affection from the other for an extended period of time. Unfortanely it happens alot, its something we all need to work on.

I am just saying,

Mr Anonymous

Cameron said...

Yeah....what Mr. Anon said ;) Great comments everybody. I'll think I'll just have a good old fashioned talk with the wife first, get it all out in the open, and go from there.

Of course, if you read my previous post here, I asked my wife if she was still taking her happy pills, and she nearly killed me with her glare. I'll try to be more suave in my approach ;)

Shelle-BlokThoughts said...

Cameron... Hehe can u be suave? U can pay me to teach u about that! J/k... I have a suggestion... Maybe pick up that old night job, ya know the one? U show at bachelorette parties and ur the main event? I think u mentioned something about a g string and dollar bills? Maybe that could help the financial at least for that ONE more kid?

Mr. Anon... That's not a problem with us... Cause withholding it for an extended period of time is punishing me also and I'm to selfish for that!

Mr. Anonymous said...

That is always good to sit down with the wife. There is a skill that the wife and I learned on how to discuss conflict and to be able to walk away holding hands. It is a skill in communication, and like any skill it takes practice. If you like, I would be happy to share it with you. But, maybe you have a way to talk with your Mrs. that works well for you.

You know Shelle is getting a group of her girlfriends together for some trip to Las Vegas later this year. I bet if you take up her extra employment suggestion, and you head to Vegas as well, during the same time, you would make a killing with them. I don't know if it would be to keep your clothes on or off, either way you make a ton of money. it's a win-win for you.

I am just saying,

Mr Anonymous

Mr. Anonymous said...

Cookie Crum,

Have you gotten any advice that would be beneficial for you?

I am just saying,

Mr Anonymous

Shelle-BlokThoughts said...

Mr. Anon that communication technique would be a good post!

Cameron he's right u would make a killing... How do u look in hot pink?

Mr. Anonymous said...

Oh sure leave it to you to want me to make a post out a simple comment. I am not sure I can write anything long enough to keep anyones attention. I am not one for words.

I am just saying,

Mr Anonymous

Shelle-BlokThoughts said...

Mr. Anonymous- I know u r not a man of many words but if u would step out of ur comfort zone just this once and share ur uber cool info on that communication technique that would be awesome! Just saying...

T said...

I feel like I've been in a very good session of therapy - hubs will be thrilled :)

I love when there's good discussion here :)

Mr. Anonymous said...

T,

We just need to know your health insurance information, so we can verify marriage therapy coverages, so we can bill for services.

If there is no coverage or you do not have health insurance, then Cameron will be contacting you to make other financial arrangements. I bellieve he takes cash, cash and cash as payment. When you see the amount of the bill, don't be to disheartened and remember you are helping to contribute to Cameron's lets make a baby fund.

I am just saying,

Mr Anonymous

Cameron said...

Shelle,

I'm so embarrassed, that g string offer was for your eyes only ;)

I know my insurance does cover the first few therapy sessions, should I need it. After that, I'm on my own. Thank you all for your comments....good stuff!

T said...

hahaha - like my having my 5 kids hasn't tapped me out enough - you don't even WANT to know what the bill was at the dentist yesterday... how does a 14 year old end up needing an implant?

Susan said...

PS... let's also clarify that THERAPY is an awesome tool for even a strong marriage - my husband loves going, because at times its just an outside person who validates his thinking!

I mean, come on - where else can you have someone agree with you whole heartedly your ex-wife is a control freak and has major problems???

The right therapist is a beautiful thing in any relationships - totally do not see your marriage as having huge issues!

Again, good luck.

Cookie Crums said...

Ok so I tried to post earlier with my "crack"berry but it obviously didn't work!

I hope Cameron has gotten some good advice b/c I know I have. I'm going to have my hubs give me a time frame....I won't hold his feet ot the fire (WELL maybe a little) but I have to have some idea of when he'll be "ready". He tried to used the finacial excuse with me but that was a bunch of bull. We could make a few, minor adjustments and plan for #2 immediately. I called his hand on that one, and he admitted "defeat." The whole "I'm not ready" is okay. I just need reason and a time frame to reevaluate. Open ended just annoys me!!

I have to say this topic hasn't caused us any problems. I do understand. And although he's not saying it, I think my husband just doesn't want the work and lack of sleep that comes ith a newborn. Our little boy now is almost 2. So he's getting more and more independent each day. And of course it's getting easier. that's why I THINK "I'm Not ready" is the answer I keep getting.

And honestly, the reason I'm sort of ok with him not being ready..... I'm enjoying being pre baby weight and feeling good about myself (and the hubs is enjoying it too! That might be another reason he's not "ready" for another pregnacy LOL)

Missty said...

Late here. But really if your wife wants a "gabillion" kids and you are good with what you have, or maybe one more down the road. Then thats the deal... maybe one more. Sucks for her, but not fair for you either to have to feed, clothe and see to every need of a gibillion kids.

This is something that needed to be talked about before marriage - how many kids is a HUGE deal.

Youngblood4ever said...

Sad I was MIA for this conversation. I was out of commission for a few days. This is an interesting topic. Luckily Hubby and I have pretty much always agreed on the kids thing. I know a lot of people who haven't and it causes a lot of problems. No advice from me on this one. Good luck!

BeautifulWreck said...

I'm sorry if my bluntness with the information that was given was taken as disrespectful to Cameron. That was not my intention. I still stand by what I posted and I think there were some great words of wisdom from the other commenters that followed.

WE BELONG